1800 Gallon Tank

[oughtsix]

I would like to make a suggestion for the top filter plate. Instead of a flat plate simply make it curved like a Cetus Sieve.

That's an interesting idea. Need to look into that. Would mean some changes to the overflows and need to source for a sieve-plate. Thanks oughtsix

I really like your idea of an integrated filter! My thought on the Cletus Sieve was for the top filter plate to be a half meter lower on the outside wall than the separating wall and also make the curve in it. So there wouldn't be any need to change your overflow design. Along the length of the long outside filter wall you could make some kind trough to collect the debris similar to the purposed collection trough in the valley of the purposed V floor. I envisioned a second layer of much finer filter pad below the Cletus sieve.

When I searched for the stainless steel mesh filter I was surprised that it isn't nearly as expensive as I had expected. ebay has some listings (I don't know if that is any help in Thailand). I think you might want to look for Dutch twill weave material (Sounds funny but google it).

 

[oughtsix]

I am not certain yet on the draining of 'muck'. As mentioned earlier, my first idea is to use spray bars under the gravel that return water from the pumps into the tank. This would create an upward flow that would take rubbish to the top and in the overflow/filter.
However, this might not help in dead spots, so 1 idea is to have the spray bars around the walls of the tank spraying inwards with a 30 or 45' angle and combining that with a drain in the bottom.
Still, not sure if this idea would help without it being the actual drain as is the case with a normal pond setup.
I might try a hybrid, where I could switch 1 pump from filter-outlet to bottom-drain and pump-outlet from spray bars to drain-pipe. This way I could clean the tank easily during water changes...

Oughtsix, thanks for your suggestions, you're giving some very good food for thought. Cheers...

My pleasure! I enjoy the design process. Like I said, I really like the idea of your integrated filter. One concern I would have with your current design is the main tank backing up though the pumps and flooding the filter compartment. Maybe looping the return pipes above the top of the tank might help... but this would allow for a siphon back wash. Maybe you could loop the return pipes over the top of the separating wall (or above the overflows at least... but below the top of the tank) and put a small siphon break hole in the pipes just below the tank water level on the main tank side?

It might be nice to be able to have a large door size opening in the outside filter wall for maintenance. To do this without necessitating a sealed door would require you to ensure you couldn't accidentally flood the filter compartment and loose all your tank water through the maintenance opening. Without a maintence door you would pretty much need scuba gear for maintenance... especially if you had a back flow through the pump situation to deal with.

Maybe instead of a radical V bottom you could just slope the bottom of the tank down towards the drain in the middle (Like a shower stall)... and let gravity help with moving the muck towards the drain? Or instead of one V the length and width of your tank you could make several (4?) smaller V's parallel to each other and have 4 corresponding collection pipes? Just a thought...

May I recommend you do a little surfing on Aquaponics (raising fish and plants together in a balanced eco system). With your mild plant conducive climate a terrestrial plant filter (on the roof?) might be a huge benefit for your tank? Plant filters remove the harmful nitrogen compounds from your tank not just convert them to Nitrates which must then be dealt with... usually by water changes. (A mental picture of a water fall flowing down one side of your tank covered with nooks for plants to grow from comes to mind as a possibility). Just another thought and something to possibly spur your imagination...

Cheers!

 

[Luc]

Back-flow to the pumps is indeed something I need to read up on. My first thought is to have the pump dry and connected with hoses and clamps of course between the tank and filter. In that setup I would absolutely need a water-lock (check-valve) between the tank and the hose from the pump to avoid the tank from emptying itself if something goes wrong...
Another option is to have the pump inside the filter of course. This would mean that the pumps are only providing circulation in a fully enclosed water-basin... The problem I can envision there is that the pumps will be 160-170cm deep and will need to check on the length of the cables and the connection of to the return-pipes to see if I can make that.

Regarding the filter and access, if you look at the first few posts, I indeed plan to have an access-door and the front of the filter will be acrylic same as the tank-window. This will allow me to easily check on condition of filter materials and equipment in every layer.
Cleaning will be done by taking out materials starting at the top. Hopefully only 2 times a year or so. Mainly a matter of good pre-filters (socks or anything else). Assuming that I'll have 4 sections (top incoming water: middle bio-balls : lower middle ceramic rings : bottom water-catchment area for the pumps), each plate between these sections will rest on supports in the side-walls of the filter. Easy to lift out.

For the bottom, I've thought a bit more on it. I'll be looking into the sloped bottom with drain in the middle. Drain would be pre-concrete fixed, so it's part of the concrete structure.
Now to get around the problem of 'muck' building up, I am thinking of putting in a 'false floor'. A plastic or steel fence like floor with gravel on top. This would (I think) provide the ultimate bottom cleaning properties...Need to get some drawings done on this to check...

The waterfall/plant-filter idea is indeed a nice thing, but would require a lot of other planning again... will be something for another time to think about...lol..you've already disrupted my concentration at work with all these idea's...hahaha

Thanks again for the input..

Cheers,
Luc

 

[Luc]

Came up with some thoughts on the drain and returns.
Central pond drain that is connected to a smal pump. Outlet of the pump goes up to top of the filter. That is to keep the bottom clean.
Then 1 or 2 pumps from the bottom of the filter that connect to 3 outlets in the tank, similar to my 99 gallon. These will have outlets in the concrete background so you don't see them, but the positioning will be to create a flow from left back corner to right back and along the right side wall and front to the overflow. This will hopefully create enough flow in the tank to get all the rubbish out.

Checked on the Dutch weave, good idea, stainless steel type would make a good screen for rubbish. Clamping it to create a slope and have a catch at the lower end for rubbish.
Straight screen below and just above the bioballs, my guess is that it would be great for polishing the water at the same time.

Will stop at home pro this week to see what they have.
Pump wise I am thinking about 2 1000 gallon pumps for the filter and a smaller pump for the drain.

Any advise on water turnover for a tank like this? 1x per hour 2x?

 

[oughtsix]

I thought I read that you were planning on an access door to the filter. I would guess check valves (water locks) would be sufficient to prevent flooding the filter compartment. I would recommend designing the plumping so the check valves as well as the pumps are replaceable without too much pain. I mentioned the back flow through the pumps more to give you something to consider than any real concern.

With bio balls wouldn't bio rings be redundant? My understanding is the wet/dry nature of bio balls make them much more efficient than permanently submersed bio media. Having just installed a trickle filter with bio balls on my puny 110 gallon tank I am really impressed with its ability to oxygenate the water. But the end result of any bacterial filter is Nitrates which will necessitate water changes.

On the second screen are you going to employ a fine filter mat? I think the top filter will be great for catching the big stuff and removing it before the debris clogs the lower filter section. I don't think screen alone will be fine enough to do much water polishing.

I think you filter plan sounds like a very good one!

One question I should have asked is what do you plan to have on the bottom of the tank? Gravel, driftwood, sand, bare? Big difference on cleaning approaches.

Cheers!

 

[oughtsix]

Hmmm.... A UV light to sterilize the water or kill off algae?

P.S. If you like an idea you don't necessary have to implement it. But it is often kind of nice to think of it before hand so you can make a later implementation much easier. That was my motivation at throwing a bunch of ideas at you!

 

[Luc]

Morning Oughtsix...getting used to regular input..thanks, keep going.
Agree on the check-valves, will try to get some drawings done this weekend for layout of all the fittings.
Not sure if I would go for a wet-dry or submerged. So far my tanks have had canister and submerged sump filters. Reason being that it's completely silent with some tweaking. Look forward to have some input on that.
My idea is to have both filter and tank-water at almost the same level (say maybe 20 cm difference to facilitate the sloping top-screen). That would minimize any waterfall sounds.

I have the 99 Gallon with a 30 Gallon sump that has never given any trouble and I practically never do any water-changes. Lightly planted though. Look it up on this site.. quite some pictures of how the background and filter was made...
Before I start the real work on the big tank, I'm going to make a new stand for it and get it fully planted. Been busy with family matters and renovation after that, but now in full swing back onto it.

Back to the filter-media. I'm used to filter-rings, so it's out of habit I'd say. They give a lot of surface, in theory, they should have 1000's of small openings that provide surface area for bacteria, but I'm not sure yet on this. Bio-balls all along with some good filter-mat sounds easy and sufficient to me.

I will try to avoid nitrates, which would require plants in the tank, which then dictates fish that don't ruin the plants. Initially I was thinking about some big fish, like arowana's, but I'm more and more leaning towards smaller fish like discus, neon, angels and have a large amount of them swimming around with a lot of driftwood and plants on that driftwood.
Having these dreams of dozens of neons and other small schooling fish combined with some bigger beauties like discus.

For the bottom, Course brown gravel. About 1 - 2 inch diameter. Reason is to ensure that dirt easily gets through to the bottom and the drain over there. As mentioned earlier, I'm thinking of putting a stainless fence horizontal on the bottom, lifted about 1 inch by spacers. With the course gravel on top, you don't see the fence and dirt will never get stuck with the bottom-drain pump pulling it out.

Decoration will be 'very' large pieces of driftwood against a light-brownish concrete background. Likely some of the decoration will look like roots from a tree that grow into the water. Something like this:



Amazon species and theme. Has to be as natural as possible except for the murky water...:grinno:

UV-Light? Not on my list yet. So far I've never really had trouble with algae except during startup. After that it's a matter of the filter and fish taking care of it. Pleco's and other algae eaters and of course enough plants to suck up the nitrates that are a main cause for algae to bloom. Important is also to limit feeding of fish..

Appreciate the input, lots of ideas to sort through. As mentioned, need to put together some drawings first to get an idea on the plumbing...That's a fun thing to do..hope to have some time this weekend for that.

Cheers, work waiting.
Luc

 

[oughtsix]

Hi Luc,

So a giant under gravel filter Sorry, I just had to say it. It actually sounds like a good plan to me.

I just set up my first trickle filter a couple weeks ago and I have noticed my cichlids are a lot more active. They have always been pretty peppy but they have been noticeably more active since I first turned on the trickle filter. I figure it is due to much more oxygen in the water... but that is just my hunch. My 110 gallon is a tall tank with only 18" x 48" surface area. I don't think my fish ever lacked oxygen but the water tumbling over the bio balls with bubble wands in the bottom of the sump the O2 level has to be considerably higher. This is where my preference for a wet/dry comes from. If the top of the filter section was covered somewhat tightly wouldn't that cut down on the sound considerably? My new DIY overflow pipe is a little obnoxious on noise (I am enjoying working on this noise challenge) but I was imagining your big overflow cascading over the bio balls as sounding kind of relaxing. But if you design the filter to be submersed it should should be pretty easy to run it wet/dry if you want. I am with you on the ceramic rings if they are going to be submerged.

My plan is to dump the majority of my filter equipment and build around a terrestrial plant filter on top of the tank. I too have a stand build in my near future. I just have to finish the tile floor in the kitchen first (The tank is going to be moved to the kitchen on the new stand).



I doubt you will need a UV light... but it would be nice to have provisions to put one in easily should the need arise.

When I bought my 110 gallon a few months back it was with the intention of making it a really cool planted tank with a lot of smaller fish. The tank came with some nice cichlids that won our hearts over before I could exchange them. I totally understand your concept of a planted tank with lots of smaller fish.

I think your filter will be great at breaking down nitrogen products but from my very little experience with a trickle filter (or submersed filter) I don't think it is going to be that great at water polishing. Maybe you might consider a swimming pool filter for the times you need water polishing? If you could pick up a swimming pool DE or even cartridge filter used it might do a nice job giving you that extra clarity.

I have to put the kids to bed, catch you later.

 

[Luc]

Your timing coincides with my lunch. Just finished the food.
Had a good laugh at the Undergravel Filter.. When I got my first tank, long story, it came with undergravel filters.
But ever since I moved to Thailand and got a tank again, I started to read more on it and got the first canister. Then through Aquaria Central and other sites learned more about filtration, setup and other things. Combined with some logic and biology / geography background it was quite easy to figure stuff out and I now build most stuff myself where possible.
Totally forgot that I was just creating an old-fashioned undergravel filter...lol

Checked a bit on the cletus-sieve. Got most of it already worked out as to how to put it in. If I'd go with it, it would make easily for the wet-dry, just lower the level of water in the filter a bit.
Water-polishing might not be necessary, but I might simply put an in and outlet on the front of the filter and make a closed loop with 1 of the canisters I have. Put polishing media in, connect to the filter-house and plug it in. 2 taps in between for disconnect and cleaning the canister and ready to go.

Front of the filter I plan to recess a bit (behind the access door) compared to the front of the tank itself. This way I have space for electric, filter, supplies and pumps of course. So an extra polishing canister will be easy if the connections are there already.

On your sound in the stand-pipe...Not sure how your setup looks/works exactly, but I managed to get absolute zero noise on the 99 except for humming of the pumps. That is with an overflow box and a 1 inch PVC tube going straight down in the sump at maximum flow-rate, which I think should be doing about 25 Gallon/minute minimum.
The inlet is about 20cm below the tank-water surface and has about 10 cm clearance to the bottom of the overflow box to provide space for the syphon tubes (4 x 3/4" tubes) to work after power-outage.
The 4 syphon-tubes fill up the box fast enough to maintain about 15 cm water above the outlet to the sump, so there's only water going down, full speed, not sucking in any air that causes the noise.
The outlet in the sump is below the surface again, so there's no splashing there as well. 2 2800l/hr pumps at the other end of the sump then push the water back to the tank through 4 x 3/4" return-lines. Runs without trouble for almost 2 years already.
2 pictures I found of that setup..rest is in some other post on AC.

Cheers, back to work.
Luc

 

[oughtsix]

Hi Luc,

I agree with adding easy to get to taps in the filter plumbing. I was going to suggest this myself. This will give you all sorts of flexibility... polishing, UV, water changes...

What are your plans for water changes? Is your tap water pretty fish friendly or does it need conditioning? I really like the idea of a continuous water change system.

I have cichlids in my 110 gallon like I mentioned previously. I am using the agorgrite(sp?) white sand substrate and the fish seem to love it! They like to do a lot of landscaping. My little sister just gave my a bunch of extra plants out of her tank. I didn't think that I could do plants with Cichlids but I potted the plants, put gravel on top of the soil and put them in the aquarium. The plants are doing quite well and the chichlids seem to love hiding in them. When I move the aquarium I will do a little landscaping and push the plants into the sand so they look nicer.

I think potted plants might work out well in your new big tank. It might be nice to have the top of the pots level with or slightly lower than the surface of your large gravel. Is there anyway you can make provisions in your "Gravel Filter" to hold the pots? Just another thought.

I am using a DIY overflow pipe for my trickle filter. The pipe comes over the side of the tank, down to the bottom of the tank then back to the surface of the tank where it regulates the level in the tank. Like everyone elses pipe it makes sucking sounds and I have been playing with different configurations to quiet it down. The configuration I have currently is doing pretty well. If I have a chance I will post a picture. When I move the tank to its new location I will either do away with the trickle filter or drill the tank. (I might do both.) I am just experimenting (playing around) with the trickle to see what kind of filtration I like best.

I am coming to the conclusion that they keys to a low maintenance tank is some combination between using plants to remove the Nitrogen compounds and a continous water change system. I read through the posts floating around about the super Nitrate removing algae filters but they aren't what I consider low maintenance (chopping off algae every couple of days) and they aren't very aesthetically pleasing!

Cheers!

I look forwards to seeing how your design has evolved... when ever you gat a chance. I know drawings can be a lot of work.