75 with 14" jaguar cichlid

[tonytheboss1]

Managuense, Jaguar Cichlid, Managua Cichlid
"Cichlasoma" (Nandopsis) managuense
SYN: Heros managuense
PD: An elongated cichlid with an up-turned mouth. The most common color type has a pinkish-gray to beige background, base coloration. The body is covered with black spots and splotches. These are very irregular and no two fish have the same pattern. On the fins, this pattern continues. The iris of the eye is bright red.
SIZE: Males to 20" (50 cm), females to 16" (40 cm); not usually larger than 14" (35 cm) in captivity.
SS: C. mortaguense
HAB: Found in still to slow-moving water. Central America: Lake Managua, Lake Nicaragua in Nicaragua; to Southern Costa Rica and Southern Honduras.
S: bottom
TANK: 36" (91 cm) or 45 gallons (170 L) is sufficient for young individuals up to 8" (20 cm). However, this fish can grow up to 12" (30 cm) its first year, and should be moved to a 72" (183 cm) or 100 gallon (378 L) tank. The tank should have open swimming areas, and be supplied with hiding places of rocks, roots, and wood. These fish burrow and uproot plants. Use potted or plastic plants.

Courtesy: Mongabay Fish Species Database

:thud: Ya know ------ I guess you can make the definition of 'minimum' be anything ya need it to be? I'm no "WEBSTER" but logically shouldn't the 'minimum' be what you start out with (As w/ the 45gl / 170 L) up above & when the fish grows (up to 12" in the first yr.) move on to the (100gl / 378 L) to accomadate the anticipated continued growth of 18/22" ?? Yes these recomendations vary from source to source but I've yet to see a 'reco' for a 20"+ Managuense Cichlid to be kept in a 75gl. tank!!

How do we keep cichlids happy and healthy? They need room, Room, ROOM! Think in terms of 60 gallons (or more) PER FOOT LONG CICHLID! Seem extreme? Not at all. Cichlids have lots of space in the wild, and although they will adjust to the confines of an aquarium, there are limits as to how "cramped" they can be.

Courtesy: The Cichlid Aquarium; Dr. Paul Loiselle

If this '60g per ft.' lng.(or more) 'reco' is even close, wouldn't that dictate a 100/120gl tank for a 'Jag' 18/22"s nowhere near the 'minimum' !?! :bowing: I gotta give ya 'props' on 're-direct' though :laugh: :laugh: you'll make a fine DEFENSE attorney one day!! I do wish you the Best of Luck !!! (I rest my case)

 

[reptileguy2727]

the minimum is not what you need to start a cichlid off in, you can start small cichlids in a 10 gallon, and just keep stepping up as needed. i have seen profiles listing a 75 as the minimum for a jag. the whole point of a minimum is to let someone new to the species know what size tank they will need at the minimum for the species, not what you need to start them off in. most people dont start a 1.5" cichlid in its own 75. mine started in a 10 and you can see how he turned out. bigger is better. and i think it is wrong, neglectful, and immoral to only provide a 75 for a jag if you can provide a 180, but if you cant you need to do the best you can with what youve got and if it is good enough, you did okay. if you cant do good enough you need to do the responsible thing and get it into a better home. mine is at least good enough.

 

[Candycat21]

Actually most pet stores that have those info tags for each fish species, it states the minimum tank size...what they mean by this is actually the minimum tank size for the fish at the moment....a growout tank....obviously for most of the fish they are going to require a lot more than a 20 or 30 gal tank like most of the tags say.
Just about everyone knows that I work for one of the largest pet stores, so lucky me I get the inside scoop as to why they do some things that they do...the info tags for example....those tank recommendations are the minimum tank size you can START with and by no means means that the fish can live permanently in that "minimum"
Just a few things I thought I'd share with everybody :

 

[reptileguy2727]

well, thats one of the most immoral and misleading things you could do. that is how so many fish end up in too small of a tank. so the big place you work at is misleading, but anytime a minimum is stated it should be the minimum for the species, not the specimens in the tank. i hope you at least tell people what size tank they will actually need.

 

[Candycat21]

No need to get all defensive man.
Was just a general tip for people who may have thought otherwise.
As for what you said....don't you think you're being a little hypocrytical....the minimum size tank for the size your fish is, is at best 100 gallons and you have him in a lot less....
So you're basically saying that your potentially 18" Jag will be able to live happily in the 75 you have him in now...even though it is only what...18" or so wide give or take a few....just because they say that is the minimum, you're going to believe them!?!?
I think what most people here are trying to say is that you WILL eventually need to upgrade to a larger tank regardless.
I cant speak for all stores, but the one that I manage, have educated and trained employees to properly educate and inform customers of all the fish we sell and to explain to them what each fish will absolutely need in order to reach full size and still be healthy...no stunting or deformities because of inadequet space to grow etc.
And to just clear it up as well, I don't make the info cards and put the info onto them, that all comes from much higher places than where I am, so it is my responsibility to my customers to properly inform them on the needs of each idividual fish they might be interested in and to explain that some of those tank sizes are for grow out purposes only etc.
Unless someone has a tank that is large enough for the fish to live in PERMANENTLY that they plan on getting, I will not sell it to them. I believe that if someone wants a tank buster fish, then they should be able to provide it with the PROPER setup from the start...one it saves money and two it ensures that the fish will be healthy and grow normally....provided the owner takes care of water changes and feeds a varied diet etc.

 

[tonytheboss1]

Unless someone has a tank that is large enough for the fish to live in PERMANENTLY that they plan on getting, I will not sell it to them. I believe that if someone wants a tank buster fish, then they should be able to provide it with the PROPER setup from the start...one it saves money and two it ensures that the fish will be healthy and grow normally....provided the owner takes care of water changes and feeds a varied diet etc.

I applaud your responsible attitidude as an aquarist & a retailer. I wish more were 'cut from the same mold'! The industry is full of mis-information & it's often difficult to sort out. My friend (I hope) 'r/g2727' & I have been 'exchanging' :argue: opinions on this subject for quite a spell. (read the posts) :thud: I'm no expert by any means but I do try to share what I know to be true. If it's opinion, I'll let you know it's my $.02, but if it's fact then it's fact. Opinions - we can agree to disagree. Fact remains fact whether you like it or not! Keep educating!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[reptileguy2727]

well it snice to see a change of pace. i have whenever i am dealing with customers who have gotten bad info from other pet stores, its always the big places leading the way in how unbelievable their info is. i have seen many different recommendations for minimum tank size for my jag. some ranging from 75 minimum for the fish. some as high as 100 gallons per foot of fish. mine will stay in the 75 unless i can somehow afford to step him up, or he starts to any signs of it causing any problems. so far he is doing greta in it and i think that a 48x18 footprint tank will be good enough for an 18-20" jag, not ideal, but good enough. and MANY other very experienced cichlid keepers have agreed that as long as i do it right, he'll be fine. i know those labels come form higher up in the totem pole of businessmen, thats why i prefer to work at local pet shops rather than the big chain stores where there is little flexibility to do what i think is best for the animal and the customer. i know the 75 isnt ideal, its not what i would like to see him in, but its the best i can do for him at this point, and based on my research it is good enough to not warrant getting rid of him (and him ending up who knows where).

 

[Natural]

I have a 10 inch green terror in the same tank as 9 inch Jag. bought when they were 2 inch. Both are in a 400L tank with two filters(600L 400L) not stunted and still growing but some people would say the tank too small and the Jag kept alone in its own tank. My point been if your jag is healthy and growing well why upgrade to a bigger tank 18 inch wide seems fine to me. yeah some can grow to 24 inch! but most dont exceed 18 inch.

 

[MoJo]

I was directed to this thread by a member of the board. I currently house seven different Managuene in varying sizes. I have kept a breeding pair of Managuense in a 75 gallon tank (Male 12"/Female 9"). I have kept the same pair in a 125. The fish I call "Jumbo" is 14" and is living comfortably in a 75 gallon tank. I do a 75% water change weekly with regular filter maintenance. It can be done. Bottom line is water quality. Turning aroud isn't a problem. If you think it is watch a breeding male turn around inside a 10" pot to come and go. I keep Jumbo in the 75 gallon right now because it is the easiest way for me to stay on top of the water quality. I did have him in a 125 for a while. The 75 gallon works fine. My tanks range from 1600 gallon and down...th smallest is two 55's for grow outs.

All this said I question if the firs photo of the Managuense looks deformed. It looks like the spiine is arched. It's not uncommon with a lot of the "familiar" breeds of fish. Interbreeding siblings on down th line for sale can throw all kinds of curve balls. I don't mean to offend. Just tating an observation. Maybe it's the angle of the photo.

So the million dollar question. Is it OK in a 75? Sure. Would it be better in a bigger tank? Probably..if the water quality was the same. The one thing you have to rememeber about volumes of water (when it pertains to fish tanks especially) is that when water quality "goes bad" it generally shows up quicker in a smaller body of water. It's also easier IMHO to turn it around quicker...depending on the problem. When something goes wrong in a bigger body of water (bigger tank) it's generally been a slower build up...leading to potentially harder things to correct.

Hope this helps.

Mo

 

[tonytheboss1]

Although it seems to fly in the face of all I've researched & understand, I'll defer to your success as an expert aquarist (I've seen & read your work)! :bowing: :bowing: That being said I don't know that I would advise the avg. novice fishkeeper that keeping a potentially 18/20" predator in a 75gl tank was OK. Some not so diligent or responsible novice might mistake that as a 'blanket endorsement' for keeping 'oversized' fish in 'undersized' housing. The only ones to suffer in that scenario is the fish. Maybe something like "I'm an expert folks, PLEASE don't try this at home" Again, thanx 4 weighing in & keep educating--we all can learn something!!!