Absolute DISASTER with neons
- Thread starter msjinkzd
- Start date
If i had to do it over, I would certainly do it differently. I had very little time to prepare for these fish and they got to my house at 2am so my thoughts were a bit muddled.
As for their specific source, I still have not even gotten the paperwork (OR the invoice) so don't know specifically what their origin was. I import from 14 or so different countries, all of which can have these particular fish on them.
Typically I don't bring in fish, and when I do, its not in this large of quanitity. I wouldn't have chosen these species.
In the future, I plan on having individual tanks set up for each species I bring in (building the new racks as well speak, I will have 4x55g, 3x75g, 10x20g, 5x29g, 5x30g, 5x10g) in addition to what I already have in service.
i really appreciate the advice. Typically I test the water and do a drip/flush after adding something like prime to the bag water. Normally I put them in a bucket to acclimate then depending on species put them in a shallow tank (especially things like cories).
I don't typically treat unless there are symptoms.
This time I did decide to treat with Furan as its a broad spectrum antibiotic. I am concerned about the way the neons dropped off on day 5. Another person who also took some fish started losing his neons and immediately treated with antiobiotics and was able to save a good many.
I have since ordered an arsenal of meds to have on hand just in case something like this strikes late at night again. I felt helpless and powerless and by the next morning it was a moot point.
As for their specific source, I still have not even gotten the paperwork (OR the invoice) so don't know specifically what their origin was. I import from 14 or so different countries, all of which can have these particular fish on them.
Typically I don't bring in fish, and when I do, its not in this large of quanitity. I wouldn't have chosen these species.
In the future, I plan on having individual tanks set up for each species I bring in (building the new racks as well speak, I will have 4x55g, 3x75g, 10x20g, 5x29g, 5x30g, 5x10g) in addition to what I already have in service.
i really appreciate the advice. Typically I test the water and do a drip/flush after adding something like prime to the bag water. Normally I put them in a bucket to acclimate then depending on species put them in a shallow tank (especially things like cories).
I don't typically treat unless there are symptoms.
This time I did decide to treat with Furan as its a broad spectrum antibiotic. I am concerned about the way the neons dropped off on day 5. Another person who also took some fish started losing his neons and immediately treated with antiobiotics and was able to save a good many.
I have since ordered an arsenal of meds to have on hand just in case something like this strikes late at night again. I felt helpless and powerless and by the next morning it was a moot point.
I dont use any dechlorinator nor additives as my tap dont contain chloramine. I just let tap age 24/7/365.
As some one with Pharmceutical background and as you probably know, it is not just having arsenal of meds, it is the difficulty of detrmining the exact cause(s) without lab equipments.
This means we have to rely solely on our experiences and literatures.
Unfortunately many meds will treat wide range of microbes and many different infections displays similar symtoms. One med which worked before does not necessary means it will work on nexttime with similar symptoms.
All the factors we can record as it happens will at least help us narrow down further.
When I took in cetain fish with heavy slimes, I experienced some losses due to extra slime build up in the bag during tranship. I dont see a point in adding viscous addtives when bagging fish prior shipping or when acclimating newly arrived fish.
Prime? Colleague of mine sent e-mail asking specfic reactions involving how theirdetox process takes place and havnt heard from mfr yet. Maybe their corporate secret.
All I know is that any products made for fish must have gone thru rigorous testing before being marketed. Such testing must have involved sacrifices of many many fish.
Well, one could argue need of many outweighs the nedds of few. All I know is that it is possible to achieve successful tanks without or minimum use of synthetic products if one is willing.
Ive been asked to ship certain tropical s/w fish I catch during summer but have not shipped nor will ship since i dont have proper equipments/chemical for proper handling to ensure their safety regardless of their short life span up in Notheastern Coast.
I have shared what I catch with other hobbyists locally.
At least from my experiences in fish industry over 20 yrs, their future mainly depends on how fish were handled/acclimated after long trip (usually transhipper/wholesaler) then individual hobbyist.
Ive lost whole shipment from time time in the beginning but as I incorporated what I know, few factors from failures plus some common senses, my mortality rate dropped drastically.
Believe it or not, Journal helped a lot.
How are rest of the fish doing?
As some one with Pharmceutical background and as you probably know, it is not just having arsenal of meds, it is the difficulty of detrmining the exact cause(s) without lab equipments.
This means we have to rely solely on our experiences and literatures.
Unfortunately many meds will treat wide range of microbes and many different infections displays similar symtoms. One med which worked before does not necessary means it will work on nexttime with similar symptoms.
All the factors we can record as it happens will at least help us narrow down further.
When I took in cetain fish with heavy slimes, I experienced some losses due to extra slime build up in the bag during tranship. I dont see a point in adding viscous addtives when bagging fish prior shipping or when acclimating newly arrived fish.
Prime? Colleague of mine sent e-mail asking specfic reactions involving how theirdetox process takes place and havnt heard from mfr yet. Maybe their corporate secret.
All I know is that any products made for fish must have gone thru rigorous testing before being marketed. Such testing must have involved sacrifices of many many fish.
Well, one could argue need of many outweighs the nedds of few. All I know is that it is possible to achieve successful tanks without or minimum use of synthetic products if one is willing.
Ive been asked to ship certain tropical s/w fish I catch during summer but have not shipped nor will ship since i dont have proper equipments/chemical for proper handling to ensure their safety regardless of their short life span up in Notheastern Coast.
I have shared what I catch with other hobbyists locally.
At least from my experiences in fish industry over 20 yrs, their future mainly depends on how fish were handled/acclimated after long trip (usually transhipper/wholesaler) then individual hobbyist.
Ive lost whole shipment from time time in the beginning but as I incorporated what I know, few factors from failures plus some common senses, my mortality rate dropped drastically.
Believe it or not, Journal helped a lot.
How are rest of the fish doing?
I will absolutely take that advice to heart and keep a MUCH more detailed account of what I get, where it goes, what I do, and what I learn. Thank you so much for your time.
I know that neons are just so sensitive to chemicals- same with certain fish- I usually give 24-72 hour window to decide that the fish will make it after shipping it in.
I lost my colony paynes catfish that way that was the very same day that I had frontline plus put on all of the animals in the house- I believe a flea or a stray animal hair with a trace of the frontline just made its way into the tank water column or the draft from the smell made its way to the air pump- none of my other tanks were affected as this happened within 2 hours of applying the frontline- I was never near the tank or handled anything in the tanks
thats what the neons looked like to me belly up just like what the paynes catfish looked like and none of my sultan plecos died- I forgot what other fish I had in that tank at that time but I was just so devastated as those cats were my favorite- they didn't lose their coloring just like they died instantly
on other hand I was never able to keep neons myself as they would just die on me eventually though I was always able to keep cardinals
I lost my colony paynes catfish that way that was the very same day that I had frontline plus put on all of the animals in the house- I believe a flea or a stray animal hair with a trace of the frontline just made its way into the tank water column or the draft from the smell made its way to the air pump- none of my other tanks were affected as this happened within 2 hours of applying the frontline- I was never near the tank or handled anything in the tanks
thats what the neons looked like to me belly up just like what the paynes catfish looked like and none of my sultan plecos died- I forgot what other fish I had in that tank at that time but I was just so devastated as those cats were my favorite- they didn't lose their coloring just like they died instantly
on other hand I was never able to keep neons myself as they would just die on me eventually though I was always able to keep cardinals
You did the absolute best you could given the circumstances and a valliant effort in a pinch Rach, you have to look at the positive...you saved 2 of the species who had no homes to go tol Time to start sleeping better at night! The biggest issue here is that 3 lots of fish from 3 different sources were combined, some of which we know were wild caught (otos). Fish, like every living thing, harbor bacteria, bacteria from their surroundings that they carry but that does not harm the host fish. The deadly cocktail was exposing the neons to bacteria that either the hatchets or otos carry normally. Why five days? Incubation period. Day one they were exposed to it. Days 2, 3 and 4 the bacteria incubated and multiplied within the fish and did it's damage. So it's not really all that long. Whichever fish brought in the bacteria, either the hatchets or the otos, whichever fish was not the carrier also had immunity to it. Unheard of...not at all. And if you take a couple of the carrier fish and place them into a hobbyists tank will it also have the same effect on the existing tank inhabitants? It's possible that a particular species will succomb to the bacteria and the rest will be fine. And you would never know what was going on, such a small scale. The neons weren't exposed to a few fish with the bacteria, but to 100's of bacteria carriers. The bacteria count for transmission was huge.
It's possible that even if the fish were separately QT'd that cross-contamination would have still taken place. Think of that bacteria in this way......when you go to Mexico and drink the water.....perfectly good water for Mexicans....you will get the Mexican "squirts", quite possibly also get the Mexican "heaves", and may even have to be treated later on for Mexican waterborne parasites. But for the Mexicans, that water is normal for them, their bodies are not affected by it, the body doesn't react and they are never sick from it.
I've seen bacteria from fish imported from Asia get into my domestic discus/community fish tank unknowingly via cross-contamination with a python. This bacteria was something the host fish carried normally from their environment and it did no harm to the host fish. I've seen the disaster it wreaks on fish with no immunity to a foreign bacteria that does no harm to the host fish. The host fish were not sick. After 3 days of bacteria incubation, the discus struggled for their lives for a couple of weeks while the host fish remained perfectly fine. The rest of the tank inhabitants never batted an eye in reaction to any foreign bacteria that was introduced. The cories were fine, the tetras were fine, the plecos were fine and all the while the blue rams were spawning in this tank where my discus were sick, visibly and horribly sick. I did not lose a fish of any other species in that tank.
Should you treat the rest of them with a product to kill harmful bacteria? I would. Will it kill this bacteria that does no harm to the host fish or to maybe hundreds of other fish species? Don't know, but fish handle bacterial meds very well. If you're going to continue to bring in large quantities of fish, especially wild caught.....find out what the norm is for bacterial and parasite treatment. Don't transshippers generally just move the fish they bring in and not actually keep them or prophylactically treat them for a while like you will? There is one great guy I know brings in a variety of wild unusual species and I know he's got at least a de-parasite regime. I've questioned him on it before I purchased wild fish from him. Get in touch with Frank Greco at Frank's Aquarium for how he handles the wild fish he brings in from all over. I'm sure he'll have some expert advice for you.
It's possible that even if the fish were separately QT'd that cross-contamination would have still taken place. Think of that bacteria in this way......when you go to Mexico and drink the water.....perfectly good water for Mexicans....you will get the Mexican "squirts", quite possibly also get the Mexican "heaves", and may even have to be treated later on for Mexican waterborne parasites. But for the Mexicans, that water is normal for them, their bodies are not affected by it, the body doesn't react and they are never sick from it.
I've seen bacteria from fish imported from Asia get into my domestic discus/community fish tank unknowingly via cross-contamination with a python. This bacteria was something the host fish carried normally from their environment and it did no harm to the host fish. I've seen the disaster it wreaks on fish with no immunity to a foreign bacteria that does no harm to the host fish. The host fish were not sick. After 3 days of bacteria incubation, the discus struggled for their lives for a couple of weeks while the host fish remained perfectly fine. The rest of the tank inhabitants never batted an eye in reaction to any foreign bacteria that was introduced. The cories were fine, the tetras were fine, the plecos were fine and all the while the blue rams were spawning in this tank where my discus were sick, visibly and horribly sick. I did not lose a fish of any other species in that tank.
Should you treat the rest of them with a product to kill harmful bacteria? I would. Will it kill this bacteria that does no harm to the host fish or to maybe hundreds of other fish species? Don't know, but fish handle bacterial meds very well. If you're going to continue to bring in large quantities of fish, especially wild caught.....find out what the norm is for bacterial and parasite treatment. Don't transshippers generally just move the fish they bring in and not actually keep them or prophylactically treat them for a while like you will? There is one great guy I know brings in a variety of wild unusual species and I know he's got at least a de-parasite regime. I've questioned him on it before I purchased wild fish from him. Get in touch with Frank Greco at Frank's Aquarium for how he handles the wild fish he brings in from all over. I'm sure he'll have some expert advice for you.
Frank and I get our fish from the same source. I will consult with him as well. Mark Denaro has been a huge help in all of this as well.
The good news, no losses of any kind in days. The fish are taking the treatment really well. I am going to do a round of metro food and as long as there are still no losses, I think these guys are ok.
Still don't know if it was infection or what that killed the neons, but doing my best with the rest.
Also, a good microscope is on my wish list. I do have experience preparing and reading slides so hopefully this is something I can do in the future when fish die.
The good news, no losses of any kind in days. The fish are taking the treatment really well. I am going to do a round of metro food and as long as there are still no losses, I think these guys are ok.
Still don't know if it was infection or what that killed the neons, but doing my best with the rest.
Also, a good microscope is on my wish list. I do have experience preparing and reading slides so hopefully this is something I can do in the future when fish die.
When you say import from 14 countries, Do you actually receive directly from such locations clearing all the paperworks with Wildlife and Customs?
They go through a central transhipping company but I get lists from teh individual countries. The paperwork has to be submitted and cleared through customs and Fish and wildlife. I have my usda/aphis certs as well and am working on my CITES now. 
