Agricultural fair = torture for fish

It's not just an animal rights issue. It's an ethical issue. I am more bothered by the implications of it than by the cruelty to the fish themselves. Giving away fish as prizes gives children the idea that fish are disposable items. No matter how much the kids may enjoy winning the goldfish, they're going to dislike it just as much when they die. It's a royal pain for the parents, who are now faced with taking care of an animal they didn't want - I'm sure many of them just leave them behind because they don't want to bother with them. Which is just sending another bad message. It's just irresponsible all the way around, and we need to evolve and grow out of this tradition. I'm sure there were all sorts of sick and twisted carnival games in medieval times - bloody spectacles that we would never think of doing now.

SubRosa said:
Try to keep a fish from the genus Acestorynchus without feeding it smaller live fish and let us all know how it turns out for the fish.
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Relying on feeder fish from the store is just not a good idea. Besides the parasite and disease issue, feeder goldfish are full of Thiaminase, which destroys Thiamine (vitamin B1). For the record, tilapia are just as productive as goldfish and do not contain Thiaminase.

I'm sure there is no law in the UK that says you can't breed your own feeders, which is what you should be doing anyway with prized fish.

Things that used to seem essential are being phased out of the hobby - undergravel filters are no longer carried by many stores, for better or for worse. They are just not popular now. I only hope the same happens for feeder goldfish. Yes, they used to be a staple, but we know better now (or we should, if we bother to read). When the demand for them ceases, that's when the stores will stop carrying them - I can only hope that day will come soon!
 
While not ideal, I think Bettas would be a better alternative for the fair games. Bettas can at least live in a bowl if properly cared for.
 
platytudes said:
It's not just an animal rights issue. It's an ethical issue. I am more bothered by the implications of it than by the cruelty to the fish themselves. Giving away fish as prizes gives children the idea that fish are disposable items. No matter how much the kids may enjoy winning the goldfish, they're going to dislike it just as much when they die. It's a royal pain for the parents, who are now faced with taking care of an animal they didn't want - I'm sure many of them just leave them behind because they don't want to bother with them. Which is just sending another bad message. It's just irresponsible all the way around, and we need to evolve and grow out of this tradition. I'm sure there were all sorts of sick and twisted carnival games in medieval times - bloody spectacles that we would never think of doing now.


Relying on feeder fish from the store is just not a good idea. Besides the parasite and disease issue, feeder goldfish are full of Thiaminase, which destroys Thiamine (vitamin B1). For the record, tilapia are just as productive as goldfish and do not contain Thiaminase.

I'm sure there is no law in the UK that says you can't breed your own feeders, which is what you should be doing anyway with prized fish.

Things that used to seem essential are being phased out of the hobby - undergravel filters are no longer carried by many stores, for better or for worse. They are just not popular now. I only hope the same happens for feeder goldfish. Yes, they used to be a staple, but we know better now (or we should, if we bother to read). When the demand for them ceases, that's when the stores will stop carrying them - I can only hope that day will come soon!
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The problem with it being an ethical issue, which indeed it is, is that invariably some will want to impose their ethics on others. If you don't allow your child to play the game he/she won't win a Goldfish and you have no problem. Goldfish aren't the only fish commercially produced as feeders. Guppies and Fathead Minnows aka Rosy Reds are also used for these purposes. And in the case of Fatheads they're also sold as live bait for fishing. Should that also be banned? And if you agree that live fish should be banned for use as bait why not ban the use of worms for the same reason? For that matter why not ban using live Brine Shrimp as fish food? I don't dispute the ethical problems with the feeder fish industry, but if you follow the banning line of reasoning to it's "logical" conclusion this is where you end up. This gives a perfect example of why personally chosen ethics make a bad basis for laws.
 
I agree, but it would be way too unaffordable - and still, moving away from animals as prizes would be way better and doable, if you ask me.

Why not a nice seedling of a sunflower or something? Kids love plants in a cup, what kid doesn't like to put beans in some potting soil and watch it sprout?

With a little creativity, I'm sure there could be something else that would catch on.
 
platytudes said:
I agree, but it would be way too unaffordable - and still, moving away from animals as prizes would be way better and doable, if you ask me.

Why not a nice seedling of a sunflower or something? Kids love plants in a cup, what kid doesn't like to put beans in some potting soil and watch it sprout?

With a little creativity, I'm sure there could be something else that would catch on.
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By banning live prizes someon's ethics are still being made into a law. If parents would simply be the bosses of their children instead of trying to be their friends they could instill their ethics much more effectively that if they simply give in if the child cries too much. That's the way to solve the problem.
 
Here's something else to consider and I wish that KarlTh or another British member would chime in on this. Is it legal to sell live rodents for reptile food in GB?
 
I see what you are saying, Sub, but what I'm talking about is the ethics of selling fish for consumption by other fish, that are known to make those fish sick. So the issues with them are twofold:

#1 The parasite and disease issue from keeping fish extremely crowded with no possibility of quarantine in the shops.

#2 Thiaminase, present in most fish commonly sold as feeders.

Brine shrimp, earthworms, etc. are fine foods for fish. You can't go wrong with them - there is nutritionally less good (adult brine shrimp, plain earthworms) and then there is nutritionally very good (baby brine shrimp, gutloaded earthworms)

We need to rethink feeder fish, that's all. It would depress me if the only way to do this would be to ban feeder fish outright, but I would still support such a movement. I would be much happier if aquarists could come to this awareness by themselves, ditto for tankbusters and marine fish that are known to do poorly in captivity. I think you should be able to get these fish, but with some sort of permit that shows you are dedicated and able to care for them - the same kind as you need for lots of exotic pets. Walmart shouldn't be selling Pangasius catfish, Petco shouldn't be selling Moorish idols.

Sorry for the hijack. I *REALLY* don't want to turn this into an argument - just an intelligent discussion with likeminded people...

...pretty please with sugar on top! Let's make this a rancor free thread.
 
If you support a permit system for keeping fish, how about one for having children? The implications of poor parenting are orders of magnitude worse for both the individuals in question and society in general than some fish getting sick wouldn't you agree? I know that it may appear that I'm getting off topic but I'm really not. The fundamental issue here is whether govt, through laws should regulate these sorts of behaviours.
 
There are many laws for regulating behavior that are necessary and desirable. Fines for littering, mandatory recycling. I'm sure these impinge on individual liberties to junk up the planet and fritter away resources, but most of us agree that it is worth it!

There are plenty of reptiles and mammals that require a permit for captive care, not such a stretch to think it could/should be made applicable for certain fish.
 
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