Air Gulping? - Please Help

S

shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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Hi Folks,

Earlier in the week I posted about some high ammonia levels I was having:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68428

I followed the advice - 50% water changes, slowed down the feeding (couple times a day - just a few flakes only), and lowered the temp (currently at 79 down from 82)...

The ammonia levels were not going down at first - even w/ 50% changes, and we lost our pleco :( The lfs said that due to the very high chloramine levels we have here (tampa bay, fl) that I should use Tamsco Zip Drops.. so I took a bottle home..

Another 50% change - vacuum of the bottom - change my charcoal portion of my filter - added the Tamsco - and the next morning (yesterday) my ammonia was down significantly - under .25.. I wanted to take it to 0, but I also wanted to leave the tank for a day also to observe.. (and to help bio grow)

Everyone SEEMED fine.. the up and down swimming of the two fish stopped... everyone was LOVING the flakes and eating fine (only 2x a day)..

Then today, something else is up!! I notice that 2 of my cichlids are hovering vertically at the surface - i'm assuming breathing - hard to tell.. one is actually right at the filter / water return - where the water pours back into the tank - so - he's right at the flow there...

Also - all of the danios (4) are doing a similar thing - but - swimming - horizontally (normal) but right at the surface - looks like their mouths are out too when they do it..

And most importantly - NO ONE wanted to eat today.. verrrrry odd..

And the 3 other cichlids are just 'hidden' away.. they've poked a head out, but are staying near the bottom - not swimming around...

Ammonia is still at the low level from yesterday... ?? Are they just having a delayed reaction from the ammonia earlier in the week?? If so - can anything be done??

Could this be "gill flukes"?? and if so - what's next - just check w/ lfs??

We have LOTS of brown algae now.. on the fake plants and rocks.. it just keeps growing.. could that be hurting them??

Could it be this Tamsco stuff?? I'm using a Python - so - my water goes directly back into the tank.. In this case, I put 1/2 a cap of Aquasafe in while the water was going back in from the Python (enough to treat 20 gallons.. 1/2 cap)...

Then - I took a 5 gallon bucket - put 3/4 cup of Tamsco - was told 1 teaspoon for each gallon due to our high chloramine levels - I put the Tamsco - 3/4 cup - into the bucket w/ 4 ~ 5 gallons of water.. mixed for 1 min.. then let it sit for 5 mins... Then SLOWLY poured into the tank where the water return is to help mix it...

I REALLY don't know how to treat tap water when using a python - is this method ok?? am i better taking all of the fish out when doing water changes???

Thanks for your help...
 
Well during cycling the ammonia eventually turns into nitrites. And it is high nitrite levels that generally cause fish to gulp for air as the nitrites get into the gills and block in the intake of O2. Do a test for nitrites if you can.

Chloramines will be a problem as regular dechlorinators break the bond and deal with the chlorine and not the ammonia. I haven't heard of Tamsco, but I do know that Prime and Amquel deal with ammonia by turning it into ammonium which isn't as harmful to fish but still useable by bacteria.
 
I just did another test... using test strips and the kit..

Test strips show 0 for both nitrates and nitrites - useless...

Test kit shows .1 for nitrites

Ammonia still shows at or juuuuuuust below .25


My wife went to the lfs.. guy there is saying that we did TOO MANY water changes - and too much at a time (50%) - and basically got rid of all of our bacteria.. he said the only thing we can do now is just sit and wait and let it 'cycle again' - and that we'll probably lose some fish - but - nothing we can do about it.. (?????) Just keep adding our bacteria stuff to the tank ("MicroLift Special Blend" - this stuff smells sooooo bad that we have to keep it in the garage.. so - it has SOME kind of bacteria funk in it - not sure if it's the good funk or not.. but it's in there)..

Annnnnnnnnyway - I know his statement is quite contradictory to the opinions here - about stopping the water changes and that water changes disrupt the cycling...

Soooooo - keep on w/ the water changes?? daily?? 50%?? and if so - what's the best way to treat the water we are adding back in using the Python (tap - using the conditioner) - can we pour the water directly in like that as long as we add conditioner to the tank first??

Is a .1 nitrite level high enough to cause the gulping??

thanks again!
 
I don't have an answer but I do know the bacteria doesn't live in the water. It lives in the filter and the gravel. So doing water changes certainly didn't hurt the cycle. Something else is going on.
 
Here's one link and
another (with pictures!) to some good short technical info on the two types of bacteria nitrosomonas (ammonia-eaters) and nitrospira (nitrite-eaters). The short version:

They are largely non-motile and must colonize a surface (gravel, sand, synthetic biomedia, etc.) for optimum growth. They secrete a sticky slime matrix which they use to attach themselves.
Click to expand...

They live on stuff. They aren't removed by waterchanges. Waterchanges keep fish alive by diluting toxins. They'll keep increasing until they reach equilibrium with their food supply. Any measurable amount means there is more than they can handle, means they'll keep increasing. Water changes (dilution of the excess toxins) won't slow them down.

If they look like their having trouble breathing, it could be the nitrites. Nitrite interferes with the gills ability to take up oxygen. Salt will block the nitrite from doing this. I'd try one teaspoon of salt (tablesalt is fine). Check here and scroll down to "Salt and nitrite uptake".

I've never heard of Tamsco Zip Drops and Google doesn't seem to have heard much of them either. What are they suppposed to do? Do they list an active ingredient? I'd just stick with Prime or Amquel: they both have good reputations, they both will neutralize Chloramines and Ammonia.
 
i would call your water company and ask them how many parts per million (ppm) of chloramine they add-

are there any fish keepers from your area on the forum- if we could find them maybe they could tell you how they treat thier water.

it definately sounds like your fish are struggling to get air- water changes increase oxygen under normal conditions

if there is chlorine or chloramine or amonia that is not being neutralized my your water conditioner they could be causeing the gasping

i propose an expirament: fill your 5 gallon bucket and add just your water conditioner not the second chemical he sold you.

wait and hour and test it - you'll need to test for chlorine, chloramine and amonia a master test kit might be in order

if there are any left over chemicals add small mounts of the de-chloramine-er(is that what the bottle says it removes?) until your test results all read zero

then do the water change

do the symptoms lessen after water change?

if you've gotten everything out they should.

i doubt this is a parasite of any kind- it sounds like chemical poisoning

let us know if you have any changes or figure anything else out

good luck! -Kyle
 
THANKS for the quick replies, suggestions, and links!!

A key one may be the salt! During the most recent change (2 days ago), I may not have added in enough of the 'cichlid salt' that I use.. I mixed some up w/ some tank water and then poured it back in the tank... I'll let it sit for an hour and see if there is any change..

However - as SOON as i did it, i realized "DUH - should have done a water change first.." sorry - still in a panic mode here, and didn't think that one through all the way.. :)

hopefully it will block some of the nitrite affects.. will see in an hour.. no change then i'll do a 50% water change..

As for the Tamsco Zip Drops - I couldn't find much info on it either when searching.. The label says it contains Sodium Thiosulfate & Sodium Carbonate.
 
apperenty the sodium thiosulfate is the chlorine remover after a quick search i haven't see any indication it addresses chloramine

i read the beginning of your other thread- are you still over dosing your water conditioner?

if so and then you're also adding this you may have WAY too much of a good thing it is important to add only the recomended amout of conditioner- 20 gallons worth in 5 gallons is totally over doing it.

all the chemicals you add should only be used acording to thier directions

. . . unless we specifically tell you other wise ;)
 
shibumi2k said:
Then - I took a 5 gallon bucket - put 3/4 cup of Tamsco - was told 1 teaspoon for each gallon due to our high chloramine levels - I put the Tamsco - 3/4 cup - into the bucket w/ 4 ~ 5 gallons of water.. mixed for 1 min.. then let it sit for 5 mins... Then SLOWLY poured into the tank where the water return is to help mix it...
Click to expand...

"Zip Drops Dechlorinator / breaks chloramine lock, Gallon Size. Treats 15,360 gals at average chlorine and chloramine levels. 1 teaspoon treats 20 gals. Extra shipping. Active Ingredients: Sodium thiosulfate and sodium carbonate."

So, your LFS told you to put the equivillent of 36 teaspoons of this dechlorinator in your tank?

I'm not a chemist and there's a lot I don't understand, but sodium carbonate, which, if I'm reading this correctly is very alkaline will probably affect your pH, KH and possibly GH. What is your pH reading now?

Sodium thiosulfate will only unbind the chloramine and remove the chlorine. There is nothing in here that will deal with ammonia that I can see, unless it's the carbonate and I've found no reference to it. There's nothing in this stuff that deals with ammonia at all.

My advice is to ditch that LFS and find some Prime, which DOES deal with the ammonia produced by breaking the chlorine/ammonia bond.

Roan
 
shibumi2k said:
During the most recent change (2 days ago), I may not have added in enough of the 'cichlid salt' that I use..
Click to expand...

The chloride in regular salt is what you're looking for as far as the nitrites go. One recipe I found for 'Cichlid Salt' includes plenty of sodium chloride salt, but check your label just to be sure.

As for the Tamsco Zip Drops - I couldn't find much info on it either when searching.. The label says it contains Sodium Thiosulfate & Sodium Carbonate.
Click to expand...

Some good news and some bad news on the Tamsco. Sodium Thiosulfate will neutralize Chlorine and (reliable sources have it) Chloramine and does so by turning it into Chloride. And you want that at the moment.

When it neutralizes the Chloramine however, Ammonia is a byproduct and it doesn't do anything to neutralize the ammonia. And that's bad. You want something that does both. I like Amquel, there are others.

So far as I can tell the Sodium Carbonate is just a buffering agent, isn't doing anything to the Chloramines.
 
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