all tank raised cardnial tetras

[NatakuTseng]

Also being tank raised doesn't make them any more hardy than a wild caught specimen. I had water that was 7.8pH and kH of 7 degrees along with a gH of 10 and my cardinals, all wild caught, did just fine. In some ways captive bred fish are not as hardy as the wilds. Wild caught discus, after going through a deworming regime to purge them of natrually occuring pests, make much hardier fish than any captive bred discus. Simply because they haven't had the pampering that the domestics have, its really the same with most fish. I've found the biggest thing with Cardinals is to bump their water temp up to around 82 degrees F or higher. Its actually a much more natural temp for them to be living in, they come from the same areas as Discus, very warm water. Its amazing how something so simple can actually prevent many of the problems you could encounter with fish.

 

[pbecot01]

The problem with wild caught fish is that the process of catching them and then shipping them the very long distance is a HUGE stressor that captive ones don't have. Once they have been settled in, then they are fine... but they can definantly require some pampering during acclimating them. Tank bred on the other hand have inbreeding problems.

Pros and cons on both sides of the issue :/

 

[FishSeller]

Buy as many tank raised fish as possible!

I would guess that there is, overall, an 80% +++ die-off with wild-caught Cardinal Tetras. For those that haven't done the math, for every Cardinal that makes in into your tank, four or more die. Many points are exactly right- every time a fish is handled, his chances for survival drop dramatically. When a fish, especially small ones, is netted and put on a boat, then sent off to a distribution center of sorts, then netted again, then sent to another distrobution center, then netted, bagged, shipped to L.A., then re-oxygenated for another flight (netted, bagged, new water again), then sent through a grader, then put in a wholesaler's tanks, then netted, then bagged, then shipped to the pet store, where it is netted and bagged again, things aren't too good for a Cardinal, or Neon for that matter.

Tank raised fish, on the other hand, are bred, netted, bagged, and sent to the wholesaler down the road where they go to the LFS. Granted, they are still handled several times in the process. However, it is nothing compared to what an imported fish goes through.

Most tank raised discus in LFS's tanks are imported from the far east. The issues with these guys is this: 1) The majority of these fish are raised in nearly sterile environments with extremely soft water and 2) These fish are often treated with growth hormone that brings out color in juvenile fish. While the second issue isn't a known fish killer, I do believe it can cause some health issues.

In other words: Buy tank raised fish! If at all possible, buy fish that are tank raised in Florida! Issues with color and health are constantly addressed and improved. In the end, you get a better product without killing quite a few fish in the process.

 

[NatakuTseng]

I know Importers who import from breeders in Asia, and I know importers that import wild fish in from the Amazon. The amount of stress put on the fish during shipping is no worse than what they encounter at your favorite LFS where chances are they aren't doing the right things to keep them anyway. The survival rate you quoted is no where near accurate. If it was, it wouldn't be economical for people to import those fish in from the wild, and then resell them at around 12 cents a peice to wholesalers.(After being caught, packed, and have the large cost of shipping them from South America) LA is not the center of the fish universe either, most of those fish come into the country in the Miami area, so a much shorter flight. Most of the importers also do not turn right around and ship them back out the door, they hold on to the fish for at least a couple weeks as a recovery period, yet another flaw with what you've said. Buying wild caught fish is not the bad thing everyone makes it out to be, many of these wild caught fish are actually being aquacultured in their native habitats, and like has been said, providing another income source for local people that prevents continued destruction of the rainforest.

As to the discus issue, your first reason for them not doing well, isn't all that accurate, any person that keeps discus knows that doing daily or every other day Water changes is just part of the life when growing out young discus, they don't do it any differently in Asia, or at the best known breeder in Germany. Its a universal thing, don't believe me, go check out the discus forums. Soft water, well actually thats not the best environment for growing out young discus, its been proven that using harder water with more minerals in it encourages faster and better growth, the breeders in asia know this and don't want to do any more to their water than they have to. Soft water is only critical when it comes to fertilization fo the eggs, nothing else. Your second point does happen, hormoning is a problem, but a minor one in these days, most breeders do not hormone their fish. The only problems with Hormoning fish is that they can become stunted and or will be infertile. Here's the real problem with LFS discus for the most part. They are Culls, meaning that if the breeder couldn't sell them to wholesalers, they would be euthanised and disposed of. They would do this because, they have defects,aren't growing fast enough, showing poor color for the strain at that age, etc. These fish are not given the care that the "A grade" fish are. Fewer water changes for them, fewer feedings. Along with that comes parasitic infestations, many being intestinal worms, flagelates, flukes...etc. Now ship them from asia to a wholesaler who gives them the same poor conditions and doesn't do anything to treat the problems, so they keep compounding, now ship them to your LFS where the conditions also are not suitable. So by the time you see the fish, they look horrible, and are half dead because of a parasitic infection that could have been prevented at the Wholesaler, but instead chose to pass it on to you and the LFS you go to. Nice of them huh?

But that all being said, most fish farms...are not just down the road from the wholesaler, guess what, most fish you see in the LFS all come from asia, not just down the road. So its not as simple or as nice as you make captive rasied fish seem.

 

[FishSeller]

Hey Nat,
I hate to break it to you, but handling a fish is handling a fish. Whether they go to MIA or LAX, those fish have a hell of a time being handled. As a wholesaler, I can assure you that quite a few fish come from "right down the road" when you're working in the Tampa Bay area- truly the hub of the tropical fish business in North America.
After a quick survey of industry professionals, an 80% die off is most definately a realistic number for wild-caught Cardinal Tetras.
Furthermore, distributors do everything in their power to move fish as quickly as possible. Statisically, survival rates go up when they are in their permanant homes as quickly as possible.
If by "aquacultured in their native country" you mean- they live in local rivers and lakes and then they're netted, you're exactly right. Maybe I should start selling "free range Cardinal Tetras". If Cardinals are being raised in S. America as opposed to being collected, this is new news to me.
I'll take it back to this- handling kills fish. A fish that is handled 10 times isn't going to do as well as a fish that has been handled 4 times. Furthermore, more fish are being raised in Florida than you realize. I can assure you of this. I work in the industry.

 

[NatakuTseng]

I work in the industry as well and am deeply connected with many discus importers and breeders, many of which also import other species of fish, and none of them have those massive losses that your talking about. Yes there is a lot of farming down in FL, but most of the domestically raised fish are still coming out of Asia. Why because they are cheaper. So, must be the guys you know are doing something wrong.

 

[Timmain42]

Uh, ouch.

 

[fishypoo2]

Buy as many tank raised fish as possible!

I would guess that there is, overall, an 80% +++ die-off with wild-caught Cardinal Tetras. For those that haven't done the math, for every Cardinal that makes in into your tank, four or more die. Many points are exactly right- every time a fish is handled, his chances for survival drop dramatically. When a fish, especially small ones, is netted and put on a boat, then sent off to a distribution center of sorts, then netted again, then sent to another distrobution center, then netted, bagged, shipped to L.A., then re-oxygenated for another flight (netted, bagged, new water again), then sent through a grader, then put in a wholesaler's tanks, then netted, then bagged, then shipped to the pet store, where it is netted and bagged again, things aren't too good for a Cardinal, or Neon for that matter.

Tank raised fish, on the other hand, are bred, netted, bagged, and sent to the wholesaler down the road where they go to the LFS. Granted, they are still handled several times in the process. However, it is nothing compared to what an imported fish goes through.

Most tank raised discus in LFS's tanks are imported from the far east. The issues with these guys is this: 1) The majority of these fish are raised in nearly sterile environments with extremely soft water and 2) These fish are often treated with growth hormone that brings out color in juvenile fish. While the second issue isn't a known fish killer, I do believe it can cause some health issues.

In other words: Buy tank raised fish! If at all possible, buy fish that are tank raised in Florida! Issues with color and health are constantly addressed and improved. In the end, you get a better product without killing quite a few fish in the process.

What are your sources? 80% is horribly incorrect. No money would be made in them if that were the case. Recent studies have shown 5-6% die off at maximum between the river and retailer. If the aquarium hobby begins relying on tank raised cardinals, the Barcelos economy will collapse and the rural Amazonians will be forced to cut down trees to sell, make way for a cattle ranch, farm, or perhaps go into the mining business. Would you rather this?

Project Piaba researchers are working on improving handling techniques for the cardinal tetra so that mortalities may be reduced. As far as the cardinal tetra fishery is concerned, it does not matter whether the fish are farmed in Florida or SE Asia.

I know this sounds a little dramatic, but it is NOT exaggerated. Basically, if people stop buying wild caught cardinals (they make up 87% of the exports from Manaus) the rural Amazonians that depend upon the SUSTAINABLE fishery will be out of work and will be looking for other ways to make money (most of which are very harmful to the environment).

Which do you prefer as the "better product"?

P.S. My sources:
=Personal communication with everyone from retailers, wholesalers, IBAMA officials, Brazilian Government, collectors, exporters, biologist, ichthyologists.
="Observations on the Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) Ornamental Fishery With an Enphasis of Assessments of Stress" a Master's thesis by Scott Dowd.
=My own award winning article in TFH "From River to Home: the Journey of a Cardinal Tetra."
="Conservation and Management of Ornamental Fish Resources of the Rio Negro Basin, Amazonia, Brazil - Project Piaba."
etc., etc....

 

[fishypoo2]

And I hope the cardinal doesn't become like the southeast asian breed neon tetras. They have become poor quality fish with many problems to the fact they dont even behave like a neon should.

mr fishypoo, have you noticed an increase in tank breed cardinals? Do you think that they will drive the wild ones out of business in the near future? I am going to check out your website on your sig....

As I said in the earlier post, although it might matter to the hobbyist whether this fish was bred in SE Asia or Florida, it doesn't to the fishery. Any captive breeding projects take a good chunk out of the market for the wild cardinals.

I have noticed an increase, although slowly. As far as I know the majority of captive raised fish are from the Czech Republic and Florida. If nothing is done to allow the Barcelos fishery to adapt and improve the quality of their cardinals, the market may ultimately be stolen from the Brazilians, forcing them out of work.

ProjectPiaba.org is not up yet, as you have found if you visited it. We are still using:
http://www.angelfire.com/pq/piaba
and
http://www.finarama.com/projectpiaba

 

[lousybreed]

what started as a small post it has really gown into a very interesting and eye opening experience. There has been a couple low blows in this thread, but I am definatly learning more about the industry.