all tank raised cardnial tetras

[NatakuTseng]

When a fish dies in the CONSUMER's tank, most of the time it is the Consumer's fault. Why because they do not know the proper way to keep fish, like having the tank cycled. It is not even remotely related to the importation, shiping and such of those Cardinals. Comparing the death rates the importers encur to those that consumers have is like comparing apples and oranges, it just doesn't mix. Just because you have a tank raised fish, doesn't mean its gonna survive in those tanks any better than the wild ones. I stand behind my statement that if your customers and their consumers have a 80% death rate among your wild cardinals, those people are doing something WRONG. Having worked at a LFS, and it being one of the better ones in the area, 90% of them out there do not keep their fish the way they should, NONE of the fish. So don't go around peddling your domestically raised cardinals without presenting the facts in a fair manner, which you have yet to do. Yes shipping does cause stress on the fish, but not that much. That "high mortality rate" that you keep flaunting wouldn't exist if the LFS, and consumers were more educated about keeping fish, period, wild or not.

 

[FishSeller]

I am politely backing down from this discussion simply because we're looking at things from two totally different aspects. I understand the points made. I will say that I am a member of Ducks Unlimited, the Coastal Conservation Association, United Waterfowlers of Florida, The Billfish Foundation and other groups concerned with the preservation of wildlife through proper management of the species. I work for a company that is also focused on the conservation of reefs, the Amazon, and other ecosystems. The slippery slope we're standing on focuses around the commercial harvest of a wild species. More often than not, overcollection or in many cases, over exploitation eventually becomes an issue. As for myself, I will contine to support the domestic propogation of any animal when possible. Further, I will continue to support a domestic economy. Sometimes that option is not viable, sometimes it is. Either way, I commend your passion and wish you the best in your endeavors.
I urge the hobbyists reading these posts to weigh out what both sides have said and make their own decisions concerning their purchases. Try both fish. See which ones work for them. We should all be sharing a common goal- the enjoyment these fish bring into our homes. The live ones (wild or tank-raised) are, IMHO, much more entertaining.

 

[fishypoo2]

went to the finarama site and most of the links dont work. what other fish are produced by this region? Who ever started this program was an envisonist (sp?) and a genius. That is truely amazing what several scientists and thousands of natives have done to feed their families and save the environment. does anyone have the water chemistry of the waters around that area? It would be interesting to hear from anyone that actually went to the area. If i remember correctly, dont most of cardinals die each year in the dry season?????

The finarama site was never finished.

Some other fish:
Freshwater stingrays, Apistogramma cichlids, rummy nosed tetras, flameback tetras, bleeding heart tetras, Ancistrus dolichopterus, discus, checkerboard cichlids, knife fish, angelfish, marbled hatchetfish, severums, large and many fancy plecos, piranha, Crenicichla (pike) cichlids, peacock bass (tucunare), pacu (tambaqui), oscars, uaru, and many, many others.

The water parameters:
pH 3.5 to 5.0
Hardness little to none
Temperature (differs) usually around 70-80, but can get as low as mid-60s in rare spots.
(This is what is generally accepted an I can verify, I visited on a Piaba expedition for three weeks this past January.)

Yes, cardinals are annuals, just like many killifish. They live for a year, breed (each female can lay around 500 eggs) and die soon after. The fish are collected, for the most part after the breeding season, with no effect upon the breeding population of the species. Obviously, they can survive much longer when housed in aquaria.

 

[fishypoo2]

I do have a few comments on what has been discussed over the past few posts here.

FishSeller has an excellent point: why buy fish if they will die?
The ordinary consumer for cardinal tetras are not hobbyists, but beginners. These are people that do not know that these fish might be a little fragile.

Project Piaba has done extensive research on conditions and stressors that the fish endure starting from capture until they reach the retailer. Although many of the stressors occur during export/import. The fish do not die here, however. That, compounded with all of the other stresses (and, yes, often improper care) will cause a fish to succumb even after the major stress has passed. This is why the fishery needs to adapt to ways of acclimating the tetras better: they will (a) be less stressed when they reach their destination country, and (b) be hardier and will survive better in the keeper's tanks.

However, because this has not happened yet, is no reason to give up on it. IF the market for wild caught cardinals fails before we (Piaba) can develop better acclimation standards, it will fail.

And, of course, there are more instances than otherwise where the captive propagation of a species would definitely help alleviate pressure on wild stocks. If at all possible (as in this case, and a few others: Project Seahorse, Marine Aquarium Council, etc...) SUSTAINABILITY is the best option. As it stands, most fish present in the (freshwater) hobby are captive raised. Most others are generally not collected in numbers that would deplete the wild populations. Basically, what I am trying to say is buy captive raised, unless buying from a sustainable source, is the way to go.

P.S. And I also do not mean to start a quarrel, but an intelligent discussion.

 

[ergo sum]

This is an interesting discussion.

It strikes me that at all times an informed consumer is always better than ignorant one. You make better choices that way no matter which side you come down on. In the end the almighty $ decides. The key thing is what is sustainable in the long run.

 

[JSchmidt]

I really like cardinal tetras (neons, too) and I like the idea of supporting a rainforest economy. I have to say, though, of the cardinals I've bought (and which I'm pretty sure were wild caught), I'd be overjoyed to have only 5% loss from the LFS to my home (even with a good LFS and decent husbandry skills). I have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that cardinals coming from the Amazon to my tank experience only a 5-6% mortality rate. I applaud any research that would lead to that, but it sure doesn't fit my experience, and the good LFS I frequent (75 miles away) doesn't believe it either.

I'll happily buy live-caught fish, but not if it means that a large percentage of them die getting to me. That isn't sustainable aquaculture, to me. My experience with Florida-bred neons, which is more extensive, is that they are significantly hardier than wild-caught. I'd be very interested to compare cardinals...

Jim

 

[waverush]

Allow a random, slightly off-topic question from a new member lighten the air a bit. This is going to sound like a stupid question after I ask it, but...do cardinals resemble neons as juveniles, and "color up" as they mature? *ducks*

 

[Canuck]

Interesting discussion. And I can see both arguments have validity, I'd like to throw a couple of random thoughts out.

The death rate of a "popular" fish may be a little misleading. I would expect 80% of most of the popular fishes die in hobbyists tanks, whether tank bred or wild. Novices choose these fish due to price (remember 90% of people who buy a tank give up within a year).

Cardinal tetras and neons are seasonal fish, 80% of them will die every year whether they are exported or not. Granted, in order to stay competitive (by keeping customers happy) the South American industry will have to improve shipping methods (and profits) for middle men.

If the harvest isn't done in a sustainable matter, it will be a tragedy. On the other hand if industries that increase the value of a healthy rain forest don't take root, then we're all up the proverbial creek.

"Tank" raised fish are by far the healthiest but will never be a serious part of the market place (too expensive). Farm raised stock are price competitive but have an awful track record for health and have promoted a number of trends (ie dyed fish, hormones, that are not in the long term interest of the industry.)

Don't ever fall for the foolishness about supporting "domestic" jobs vs "foreign" jobs. Read up on what happened during the Depression and see where protectionism gets you. Purchase the product or service that gives you best value (and is sustainable).

 

[Carla G]

Allow a random, slightly off-topic question from a new member lighten the air a bit. This is going to sound like a stupid question after I ask it, but...do cardinals resemble neons as juveniles, and "color up" as they mature? *ducks*

From my observation, the differences are apparent from the beginning. Both are brightly coloured, but the cardinal has red the whole length of its body.

 

[KarlTh]

Another zombie thread!