Ammonia ? Need Immediate HELP!
- Thread starter rockbellab
- Start date
hi rockbellab
i would say:
a. your tank is not through building adaquate biological filteration (cycling). my guess is that the tank was not prepared for two 8" fish, especially oscars.
b. i wouldn't worry about the ammonia readings for the reasons RoanArt mentioned.
c. nitrites are your real concern. test every day and record it on a piece of paper at the same time each day. that should give you an idea where your tank is at. doing the same for ammonia might not be a bad idea, but nitrites are the REAL concern. if you record nitrates as well, it will give you an idea on what to expect for a waterchange regiment.
d. the pH drop was due to the consumption of carbonates by the bacterial colonies. should be kept in check by regular water changes, though you might want to take/post a KH reading on your tap water if you have the test. whatever you do, don't buy more strips.... the liquid tests are much more reliable in many's experience, including mine.
e. i would change water in small amounts daily, with nothing else added to the tank, until you see no nitrites for a week, then assume a regular waterchange schedual.
and $0.98's your change... good luck.
eric
i would say:
a. your tank is not through building adaquate biological filteration (cycling). my guess is that the tank was not prepared for two 8" fish, especially oscars.
b. i wouldn't worry about the ammonia readings for the reasons RoanArt mentioned.
c. nitrites are your real concern. test every day and record it on a piece of paper at the same time each day. that should give you an idea where your tank is at. doing the same for ammonia might not be a bad idea, but nitrites are the REAL concern. if you record nitrates as well, it will give you an idea on what to expect for a waterchange regiment.
d. the pH drop was due to the consumption of carbonates by the bacterial colonies. should be kept in check by regular water changes, though you might want to take/post a KH reading on your tap water if you have the test. whatever you do, don't buy more strips.... the liquid tests are much more reliable in many's experience, including mine.
e. i would change water in small amounts daily, with nothing else added to the tank, until you see no nitrites for a week, then assume a regular waterchange schedual.
and $0.98's your change... good luck.
eric
Eric,indiginess said:
She's using Kent Marine R/O Right. Isn't that stuff gonna be responsible for the pH drop?
Dunno what's in that.
I thought the carbonite consumption affected the KH and not the pH? Or do those go hand in hand? Wonder what her KH is.
Roan
yeah, KH and pH are interconnected. drops in KH will correspond to drops in pH in instances of low KH (theres a lot more to it, and i realize thats a somewhat flawed statement, but it works at some level)... i'm guessing that his/her tap has a KH in the 4-8 degree range, from my experience with another aquarist in another thread with source pH 7.6.
from marinedepot.com
"Kent Marine Liquid R/O Right is a specially formulated mixture of dissolved solids (also called general hardness or GH) which includes major salts of sodium, magnesium, calcium, and potassium together with all necessary minor and trace minerals. Provides natural water chemistry for the conversion of reverse osmosis, distilled or deionized water for fresh water fish and plants. Provides a balanced electrolyte system. Useful for all fresh water fish, including Discus. Contains no phosphates, nitrates or organics to pollute the system!"
it should have no effect on pH (recommended for discus! i would hope not!)
general hardness has no direct relationship with pH. KH measures carbonate ion content. carbonates effect pH by changing the concentration of free hydrogen ions in the water (pH~concentration hydrogen, the number is actually the order of magnitude...pH 7- seven zeros, pH 8- six zeros)
hope thats not overkill.
from marinedepot.com
"Kent Marine Liquid R/O Right is a specially formulated mixture of dissolved solids (also called general hardness or GH) which includes major salts of sodium, magnesium, calcium, and potassium together with all necessary minor and trace minerals. Provides natural water chemistry for the conversion of reverse osmosis, distilled or deionized water for fresh water fish and plants. Provides a balanced electrolyte system. Useful for all fresh water fish, including Discus. Contains no phosphates, nitrates or organics to pollute the system!"
it should have no effect on pH (recommended for discus! i would hope not!)
general hardness has no direct relationship with pH. KH measures carbonate ion content. carbonates effect pH by changing the concentration of free hydrogen ions in the water (pH~concentration hydrogen, the number is actually the order of magnitude...pH 7- seven zeros, pH 8- six zeros)
hope thats not overkill.
Wouldn't base an assumption on that. My pH is 7.4 to 7.8 out of the tap -- KH runs 2-3indiginess said:
I've having to use coral buffers in my tanks for CO2 injection. Little overkill
Still, I don't think adding that RO/Right is a good idea. Wonder what form the calcium is in?
Roan
rockbellab,
I went back and reread some of the things you posted. Couple of things I'd like to note:
1. Your Oscars are 10 and 11", right? I've done some searching in the Cichlids forum and they usually max 12-16" so yours are close to the max size. The *minimum* tank size for your Oscars is 100 gallons, and most of them are recommending 125 gallons. Therefore, your Oscars are too big for that 75g tank you have them in. They are probably contributing to the ammonia/nitrite problem -- the tank is overstocked.
2. Your pH dropping: Prime does not affect pH at all. R/O water WILL affect your pH and I'm still not convinced that Kent Marine might not have some affect on it as well. Suggest you use the tap water only until this is under control and the tank is fully cycled. The Kent Marine is really not necessary with your tap water.
As indiginess mentioned, a pH drop between water changes is perfectly normal. Waterchanges will bring it back up again. It's very important to ensure that the water in your tank is as close in chemistry to the source water as possible. Water changes are very important. By adding RO water and chemicals you are changing the tank away from the source and thus may be adding more problems into the equation then necessary.
Why is it that you are using RO water? Is it the pH? It does seem high and I'm doing some research to see what I can find out. Do you have a KH test kit? I would really like to know what the KH of your water is.
Thanks,
Roan
I went back and reread some of the things you posted. Couple of things I'd like to note:
1. Your Oscars are 10 and 11", right? I've done some searching in the Cichlids forum and they usually max 12-16" so yours are close to the max size. The *minimum* tank size for your Oscars is 100 gallons, and most of them are recommending 125 gallons. Therefore, your Oscars are too big for that 75g tank you have them in. They are probably contributing to the ammonia/nitrite problem -- the tank is overstocked.
2. Your pH dropping: Prime does not affect pH at all. R/O water WILL affect your pH and I'm still not convinced that Kent Marine might not have some affect on it as well. Suggest you use the tap water only until this is under control and the tank is fully cycled. The Kent Marine is really not necessary with your tap water.
As indiginess mentioned, a pH drop between water changes is perfectly normal. Waterchanges will bring it back up again. It's very important to ensure that the water in your tank is as close in chemistry to the source water as possible. Water changes are very important. By adding RO water and chemicals you are changing the tank away from the source and thus may be adding more problems into the equation then necessary.
Why is it that you are using RO water? Is it the pH? It does seem high and I'm doing some research to see what I can find out. Do you have a KH test kit? I would really like to know what the KH of your water is.
Thanks,
Roan
calcium chloride is my guess. it gives them the 'electrolyte' backing and Kent seems to me a good decent trade name.
i wouldn't discourage against its use when adding reverse ossmosis water, but i wouldn't encourage buying more unless it is for a specific reason.
ive had no problems keeping tanks with only RO with a little attention to detail.
i suppose some of the salts in Kent RO Right could lower pH, but the discus reference leads me to believe otherwise. maybe its just trust in a brand. anyway, unless you are using ONLY reverse osmosis water, i'd say its unneeded. i'm of the opinion the some RO in a system is good every once in a while.... though thats from using it exclusively for a while (crap source).
sry about referring to the post starter as he/she... seemed really cold third person.
i wont speculate on water parameters, good call.
i wouldn't discourage against its use when adding reverse ossmosis water, but i wouldn't encourage buying more unless it is for a specific reason.
ive had no problems keeping tanks with only RO with a little attention to detail.
i suppose some of the salts in Kent RO Right could lower pH, but the discus reference leads me to believe otherwise. maybe its just trust in a brand. anyway, unless you are using ONLY reverse osmosis water, i'd say its unneeded. i'm of the opinion the some RO in a system is good every once in a while.... though thats from using it exclusively for a while (crap source).
sry about referring to the post starter as he/she... seemed really cold third person.
i wont speculate on water parameters, good call.
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Wow, Thanks for all the responses. I don't have a KH test but will pick one up. I will get some more BIO-Spira ASAP.
I knew you were going to say that about my 75 gallon tank. I've done my research and I'm watching my fish. I will upgrade when possible. I had origionally bought my new tank for one baby Oscar. I went to a small LFS (not chain store) and got hooked on this mating pair. They had been bought together as babies and brought back together one year ago. The LFS told me that they would sell them seperate or together (they didn't care that they are almost codepedent on one another). I guess I'm a sucker for a thing like that. I will be upgrading when I can. Right now I'm trying to tackle one storm at a time.
I was using RO water because of the concern with my tap water. I thought thats what ya'll had recommended. I added the Kent Marine R/O Right because in my previous studies RO water takes the main nutrients out of regular water and they need to be put back in. Sometimes when I post something I don't hear back and I feel like I can't wait any longer so I try it. Someone on Oscarfish.com suggested I use RO water and I did because I don't want anything to happen to my babies.
I'm not trying to do anything wrong, my heart is in the right place. I guess I didn't know how hard this would be. All I've ever had is one goldfish for eight years and then two bettas in a ten gallon tank. They are doing great by the way. All I read said that a bigger tank had more room for error and that they were the safest way to go. It seems that all I've read is not helping that much. Thanks for your help.
I appreciate your answers and will pick up the test today or tomorrow after work. I'll post my reading asap.
SO, do you think I should start using my tap water again (even though the reading of Ammonia directly from the tap is 2.0ppm? How is that safe? Please let me know what I should do because I'm sure I will have to change more water tonight. Thanks and have a good day.
Bridget
I knew you were going to say that about my 75 gallon tank. I've done my research and I'm watching my fish. I will upgrade when possible. I had origionally bought my new tank for one baby Oscar. I went to a small LFS (not chain store) and got hooked on this mating pair. They had been bought together as babies and brought back together one year ago. The LFS told me that they would sell them seperate or together (they didn't care that they are almost codepedent on one another). I guess I'm a sucker for a thing like that. I will be upgrading when I can. Right now I'm trying to tackle one storm at a time.
I was using RO water because of the concern with my tap water. I thought thats what ya'll had recommended. I added the Kent Marine R/O Right because in my previous studies RO water takes the main nutrients out of regular water and they need to be put back in. Sometimes when I post something I don't hear back and I feel like I can't wait any longer so I try it. Someone on Oscarfish.com suggested I use RO water and I did because I don't want anything to happen to my babies.
I'm not trying to do anything wrong, my heart is in the right place. I guess I didn't know how hard this would be. All I've ever had is one goldfish for eight years and then two bettas in a ten gallon tank. They are doing great by the way. All I read said that a bigger tank had more room for error and that they were the safest way to go. It seems that all I've read is not helping that much. Thanks for your help.
I appreciate your answers and will pick up the test today or tomorrow after work. I'll post my reading asap.
SO, do you think I should start using my tap water again (even though the reading of Ammonia directly from the tap is 2.0ppm? How is that safe? Please let me know what I should do because I'm sure I will have to change more water tonight. Thanks and have a good day.
Bridget
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rockbellab said:
That will help *immensely* and if the Bio Spira is good, your tank will cycle in a few days. Don't do any water changes after adding it. Wait 24 hours and test the water. Should be ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 0-40ppm. If you get nitrate readings of over 20ppm, do a waterchange to get the nitrates down and then at least 25% every week thereafter.
So long as you are aware and plan on upgrading, that's kosher in my book
Personally I wouldn't recommend using RO water unless you are an experienced fishkeeper or were stocking discus fish. It can add to problems when you are inexperienced and trying to cycle a tank for the first time. Your tap water seems fine. pH is a little high, but I'm sure someone knowledgable will chime in and confirm as to whether this will be a problem or not.
It's obvious to me that you love your fish and just want to do what's best. A bigger tank *is* easier, but that's assuming regular tap water et al and not RO with added chemicals and stuffs.
Please do. I can help but wonder if your KH is kinda low for 8.8 out of the tap, but it's hard to tell with the RO water in the tank as we are not getting a true number on how the pH drops. It may not be a concern, but if anything, I have a feeling that once you move your oscars into a bigger tank, you'll want to try something else. Maybe some plants and CO2 injection. Knowing the KH you have to work with will help in that regard. Hrm, cross that bridge when and if we get to it
Heck, the high pH is more of a concern than the ammonia.
Seriously, the reason you are getting an ammonia reading is because your water has been treated with chloramine and not just chlorine.
(Someone correct me here if I'm wrong in the following and I'm trying to keep it simple).
Chloramine is created by binding ammonia and bleach and is usually used as a disinfectant in municipal water systems.
Okay, now, enter de-chlorinators. De-chlorinators are the chemicals we use to make chlorine harmless. It also works on chloramines. They cannot remove chlorine or chloramine, they can only render them harmless. So, what happens is this: chloramine is made from ammonia + chlorine. When you test your water, you are testing for ammonia, not chlorine. The ammonia reads on your test because the ammonia (chloramine) is still there, it's just "inert". Your bacteria can eat it and your plants can use it, but it won't harm the fish.
Here's a test you can do once we get your tank cycled: change the water with your tap water, take an ammonia reading in the tank. Wait a few hours and take another reading. The ammonia will have disappeared or lowered considerably. If not in a few hours, then certainly the next day. It disappears because the bacteria that use ammonia are doing their job. It's not harming your fish at all. So long as you remember to add the de-chlorinator, you will not have any problems with ammonia in a cycled tank.
Now, a direct answer to your question: Should I use my tap water? Yes, please
Roan
