Are discus more difficult to raise ?

[wesleydnunder]

It's been interesting following this thread. I'm seeing some really good, solid info...and a little that's less than accurate.

I started keeping discus in '89, was told by the breeder to keep them well-fed, warm and their water clean, which I did. The four Schmidt-Focke hi-fin brilliant green #5s grew into monsters.

I was hooked and have pretty much kept them since then.

Many think it's necessary to keep a fish in the same EXACT conditions in which it evolved. We hobbyists are finding that this isn't true.

Discus come from soft, acidic water, true. As mentioned,they will adapt to a wide range of hardness and ph, though. I currently have wild green discus which live in sometimes 700 ppm TDS with a nominal ph of 7.6...they're thriving, and a pair just spawned two days ago.

Fish have no receptors for ph and have no idea what the ph of the water they're in is. What we often call ph shock is actually osmotic shock from the TDS differences we subject fish to and not the ratio of hydrogen to hydroxyl in the water. Robert T. Ricketts explains this ph myth in several of his articles which are must reading for any hobbyist, IMO.

Acidic water may have the ancillary effect of rendering ammonia less harmful than higher ph, but that's not why discus keepers keep the water acidic. Acid water duplicates the water condition they originated in. Ammonia is controlled in the successful aquarium by other means. Also, while an acidic environment serves to inhibit the growth of harmful bacteria, it's a double-edged sword. Acidic water also inhibits the growth of the bacteria we want to encourage, the nitrifying bacteria which process the ammonia and nitrite for our fish. That is a primary reason for the early discus keepers to do daily water changes. Biofiltration is difficult in warm, acid water so ammonia was managed through large daily water changes. Thankfully, discus are highly adaptable and thrive in higher ph and TDS than in that which they evolved.

They are not the delicate flowers that some folks feel they are. Discus are tough fish that come from a very hostile environment. Anyone who's ever bought a wild discus with a swirl-patterned scar from a piranha hit will attest to that.

I've raised both discus and angels. Both have their challenges but the same advice I got from that original breeder still applies...to both...keep 'em well-fed, warm and their water clean.

No magic required to keep either, just good, sound fishkeeping practices and ethics.

Mark

 

[Star_Rider]

good info.
mark
thank you for your insight

 

[ksane]

Thank you, Mark. I'm glad you posted. But why is it I can say the exact same thing and get argued with? lol You must smile more when you type

 

[bs6749]

For one, Discus fry require to be with the parents shortly after hatching to feed on their slime coat. This is probably one of the hardest parts of raising Discus, since it's not anything that the owner can do, but let the fish figure it out. Sometimes they're eaten, and sometimes they don't attach properly to the parents.

I find that Discus are picky breeders, just like some shrimp and other species. They require a low TDS and pH for the eggs to fertilize and hatch. Raising young Discus require a higher TDS and more stable KH and GH conditions. Young Discus will grow for months, and the higher the heat, the more they will be ready to consume. If they are not fed properly, or sufficiently during this time, they will likely not grow to their full potential, and there are problems with that as well. It's said that large Discus, usually are not good breeders.

Having the fry feed off of the slime coat actually makes it easier to raise the fry. If the parents aren't good and eat the fry, many breeders will remove the fry and place them with serrogate parents raising fry the same size. Also, one gentleman has had much success with artificially rearing discus fry, about dime size or smaller I believe. He created his own setup and he claims that he has raised many discus that way for years.

Discus aren't picky breeders and will spawn in liquid rock and can still be fertile. Mine do and their eggs are fertile. Once I get them moved to their own tank when I have the new fishroom running maybe they will give me some babies. Also, many breeders swear that its better to raise fry in hard water to promote the bone structure of the fish. This makes sense to me.

 

[Star_Rider]

Thank you, Mark. I'm glad you posted. But why is it I can say the exact same thing and get argued with? lol You must smile more when you type

it depends on who sees your reply.

that are some who are closed minded and not open to other alternatives.

ie: some adhere to the 5-6 feeding per day with 100% water changes. it works for them so must be right.

others 3-4 feedings filling the fish with as much as they can eat with smaller daily changes and it works for them


much of how discus are raised is dependent on what the purpose is behind the fish keeper.

some are shooting for fast growth and huge sizes(which ultimately is dependent on gentics)

 

[bs6749]

it depends on who sees your reply.

that are some who are closed minded and not open to other alternatives.

ie: some adhere to the 5-6 feeding per day with 100% water changes. it works for them so must be right.

others 3-4 feedings filling the fish with as much as they can eat with smaller daily changes and it works for them


much of how discus are raised is dependent on what the purpose is behind the fish keeper.

some are shooting for fast growth and huge sizes(which ultimately is dependent on gentics)

You can't say that it is ultimately dependent on genetics, because if food is not available when they need it they won't ever achieve their "maximum potential". Environment has just as much to do with discus growth as does genetics. To say that one is more important that the other is only looking at half of the picture. Some might even say that environment is more important than genetics, because it is the hobbyist has the ability to control it. The hobbyist has some control over genetics (selective breeding) but the hobbyist cannot alter the genes of an individual fish to make it grow rounder, faster, and stronger.

 

[snoopy65]

Ok, so now that I have had my discus for a couple of weeks, I am going to add my 2 cents worth. I do not think discus are more difficult. Depending on how much you feed them, they require more water changes. Not because they are "discus", but because the water gets dirty faster and they are one of the more sensitive fish to nitrates. If you feed your other fish twice a day and do water changes once a week, a discus tank will get the same amount of feedings in 1-2 days (if you have juvies). So it stands to reason, the water will need to be changed more often. It was basically the same for me growing up my Polleni and SA/CA tank.....I fed it more often to get the fish big, so I had to change the water more often....clean the filters more often. Now they are large and poop alot......so their tank has to have a water change 2 times a week to keep it clean. It is basically the same for discus. When they are small, you feed lots so they grow. So lots of water changes. Once they get big, they poop lots so you have to change the water more often.

 

[Star_Rider]

You can't say that it is ultimately dependent on genetics, because if food is not available when they need it they won't ever achieve their "maximum potential". Environment has just as much to do with discus growth as does genetics. To say that one is more important that the other is only looking at half of the picture. Some might even say that environment is more important than genetics, because it is the hobbyist has the ability to control it. The hobbyist has some control over genetics (selective breeding) but the hobbyist cannot alter the genes of an individual fish to make it grow rounder, faster, and stronger.

good point



other contributing factors aside.. poor genetics leads to poor quality.
all things being equal, genetics will be the deciding factor on growth and quality.
I agree that environment does influence growth but, full potential is locked in the genes.

of course I am assuming( i know bad) that we, as discus and angel keepers, are providing the best care.

nice post snoop.

 

[sushiray]

:hi: :newbie:

Here I am johnny come lately newbie discus juvie! If I may continue this thoughtful post with my own experiences & hope you will bear with my story telling till the end... opcorn:

I had discus about 25yrs ago. didn't know about cycling, water parameters except Ph, tank sizing, proper filtering & W/C.

I fell in love with discus & started with 4 discus. they thrived till I started to add more & more ending up with 12. disease set in, hunger strike & alas, mortal combat. This in a 10gal. tank!! I was young stupid naive selfish inconsiderate - the worst hobbyist! But back then discus was only $10 so not a big hit as it would be today! :banhim:

Prior to discus back then when I first started with the same 10gal brush aluminum set up from Macy's pet shop (yes they did have back in the olden days) I started with a pair of angels which bred (how lucky can you be to have just 2 who happen to be male/female & then mate?!). with a red tiger oscar & 2silver $'s & 2neons & 2tiger barbs & a kisser & a blue gouramie & 2albino corys & an algae eater! all survived thrived disease free - surprise surprise lucky me. I could never duplicate raising fish this way ever again! the only problem was the kisser being overly aggressive with its "affections". :eek3:

Now today, I am 4weeks into my stendker discus & BN juvie collection & a side tank with angels/baby bala/albino corys/plecos.

So here is my 69cents worth! :nilly:

I believe discus raising (from juvie 2.5-3" not fry discussion) in comparison with other F/W is much more difficult relatively speaking. Everyone speaks of how they (as serious aquarists as you should be) treat their fish all the same so Ph affect, feeding, filtration, W/C, etc. comes with the territory for all fish so discus should be just as easy to raise. :bowing:

But for me, I am trying to be diligent in keeping up with W/C & vac-ing, feeding I think not a prob for me (3-4x's not 4-6x's), temps was 82 till Ich set in now at 86. & now have one discus on a hunger strike (parasite maybe). so discus if not in pristine water conditions are more prone to illnesses than other fish IMO. :idea:

It's the massive W/C & frequency that gets me! In my youth I would never have done this even if armed with all the knowledge I have now gained just this year! But today I do it daily! & I prime too! But you know what, as soon as I W/C-vac, hour later there is a pile of poop already!! :evil_lol:

But I found silver $'s, angels & guppies to be the easiest to raise/care for (mind you I do not have vast experience with many variety of fish - i.e. no cichlid experience, S/W, monster fish, etc.). Back way back then, Ph I thought I should monitor & regulate & didn't know much about nothing about fish raising. But these fish I had were so easy I did very little in maintenance except change the cheapo filter I had once every 2months & top off with water. :goldfish:

Now I literally spend hrs in my basement refuge from daily family life just caring & watching my discus & online forums & job search & FB! Oh yeah, squeeze in Mr. Mom also! I've been skipping TV, eating quicker meals, cleaning house earlier/quicker, getting kids to bathe/sleep earlier, etc. so I can get back to my "babes" awaiting downstairs!! :dance:

My angels in a 20gal. are thriving with little maintenance (W/C once a week) & with frenzied feedings! But I have an AC110 & the water is pristine! (water parameters are good also Ph 6.8, Am/Ni = 0 Na = 5) :Angel:

It's my discus juvie tank where I must be diligent! A big investment indeed I do not want any mishaps. So I endeavor endure enjoy to keep my discus happy so I can be happy. It is a labor of love. & I mean labor!! :hearts: :clap: :screwy:

So thks for reading - hope it was amusing in part & didn't raise anyone's ire! IMO only, not looking to debate anyone cuz I would lose in a nano-sec. I'd rather go W/C!! :silly: :raspberry:

I now must excuse myself - a W/C is calling! that pile of poop is piling on (isn't that a 5yard penalty??!!) :help: :wall: :dog: :chillpill: :cheers: :mwave: :dive2: :dive:

 

[Star_Rider]

:lol2::lol: all opinions are welcome here.