B. pallifina breeding behavior?

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Fallen_Leaves16

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I originally had obtained a pair of B. pallifina from JDAquatics some months back, and they successfully spawned within a month or so. Unfortunately, the male swallowed the eggs soon after and died via an unfortunate acrobatic leap from his tank in the middle of the night. The female stopped eating for around a week after this, but later resumed its normal habits. I took a gamble and recently got another male in hopes of successfully spawning the species; the female displayed breeding stripes around ~3 days after introduction and started bulking up for eggs; the male seemed to have accepted the female, as no aggression was noted and the two were often found next to each other. The female has now developed a heavily rounded body and I observed her nudging the male, displaying her belly/side, and attempting to embrace him. However, the male refuses and tries to bite her side while shoving her away; it only seems to happen when she makes breeding advances and no other time does he display aggression in any sort, as the female and male still lie next to each other on an anubias leaf relatively frequently. I haven't noticed the same thing happening with my first pair, but they were fairly secretive, so I might've missed it. Anyone know why the male keeps doing this? Should I separate the two and try introducing them again some other time?

Tank is a 75G community with apistos, a few cories, a few plecos, and a few misc. community fish; none of the inhabitants bother the bettas and the bettas seem much more appreciative of the larger tank as compared to when I had them in a 20G long.
 

Fallen_Leaves16

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Update: Pair actually spawned last night, only I didn't realize it. Spawns seem to occur right after lights-out. I'm assuming the male's behavior towards the female was sort of a "not here, not now" kind of message. The female is now much skinnier and has resumed pale coloration for the most part (though she still retained the thick lateral "breeding band"; if this spawn is anything like the last one it'll go away in a few days). Male has taken up position under a rather large Anubias barteri leaf and is now in post-spawn coloration (though not very visible in photos). Seems as though he has a lot of eggs; fingers crossed for a successful batch of fry in a couple weeks.

Should I try to separate the eggs from the father? Kinda nervous, as the male in particular seems to stress out pretty easily and I don't think he's an experienced parent. I have read that unimaculata eggs are very fragile and don't take well to separate incubation (supposedly they disintegrate), but I have also heard of a successful artificial incubation (albeit with a relatively high death toll).




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fishorama

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Oh, I don't have any ideas to help but I'd love to learn about these bettas & breeding them.

Congrats! I hope you know a community tank is not ideal & if you can move the eggs to a small tank, well, I would...Next time, in a month or so, try moving the pair to a smaller "spawning" tank before they breed. Try feeding them some extra protein rich or better, live foods to get them ready. The males, if like other bettas, will care for the eggs & youngest fry...but then it's all on you when they tire of parent stuff. There's a learning curve for many fish being new parents. It can take a few batches of eggs for them to get the right idea. Don't give up!
 
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Fallen_Leaves16

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Oh, I don't have any ideas to help but I'd love to learn about these bettas & breeding them.

Congrats! I hope you know a community tank is not ideal & if you can move the eggs to a small tank, well, I would...Next time, in a month or so, try moving the pair to a smaller "spawning" tank before they breed. Try feeding them some extra protein rich or better, live foods to get them ready. The males, if like other bettas, will care for the eggs & youngest fry...but then it's all on you when they tire of parent stuff. There's a learning curve for many fish being new parents. It can take a few batches of eggs for them to get the right idea. Don't give up!
Sorry about the well-overdue response; completely forgot AC existed for a little while.
Thanks for the info and heads up! Rather expected, but still disappointing news; the male ended up swallowing the eggs at around Day 5 of incubation, but for what reason I don't know. He was displaying excellent brooding behavior and diligence... Maybe it was all just too much for him.
Think I might've neglected to mention that the species is a mouthbrooding one; it'd be a mite bit difficult attempting to extract a tightly-clumped bunch of eggs from a mouthbrooder this small. Doesn't mean I can't try, though I think it might possibly be too stressful or potentially harmful to the male.
Unfortunately, my tank options are fairly limited at the moment, as I do not have any tanks reasonably suitable for the pair that are large enough besides the 75G. Luckily, pallifina are probably the best community-oriented betta species I've ever kept; they're very enthusiastic eaters (to the point that they'll actively attempt to eat food far too large for them and steal from larger tankmates) and seem to be completely passive to all other fish. They are hardly fazed by some of the less-friendly denizens and the inhabitants of the tank have all practically come to ignore them at this point.
Whenever I moved the female into a drastically new environment (only did it twice with this female), it went through a dramatic reduction in appetite and did not show any spawning behavior for quite some time; I suspect the male'd dislike similar environment changes as well, though it certainly would be much easier if I could move the fishes into a dark, solitary tank.
I have been feeding the fish a protein-rich diet in general; bits of NorthFin Carnivore pellets, brine shrimp, bloodworms, chunks of krill , chopped-up silversides, etc. are all part of their staple diet (though I don't feed actively feed them krill and silversides; they just tend to steal it). The two have free reign over how much they eat, as usually they're the first to receive the food going into the tank (and there's always more than enough for them in general). They always end up taking more than their allotted share, and are so greedy they assume nearly everything's food- the female always tries to eat my hand during water changes! A couple days ago, I heard a quiet splashing noise from the tank (aside from the powerhead and filter) and entered the room to find that the pair was constantly leaping out of the water, one after another in almost perfect sync, to try and grab a couple of bloodworms that had dried up on the lid. It was quite the comedic spectacle; I wish I had managed to take a picture or video of it.
The female has taken up breeding stripes (again), but the male is quite unwilling to spawn. In a suitably large tank, a ~3.1 group would probably yield better spawn rates, I think. Males seem to take the most conditioning before spawning, while the female requires nothing but good food and clean water to spawn again after laying eggs within two or so weeks. Hopefully I'll get another batch of eggs soon, and maybe this time I'll either separate the eggs into a tumbler or leave the male alone and hope he incubates them for the full period this time.
 

Fallen_Leaves16

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Small update- the pair spawned again during the night; noticed the male chasing the female during the day (same as before). Male was quite skinny and I believe they may have spawned before he was ready, so I stripped the eggs from him (caught him, wrapped him in damp paper towels, pried his mouth open, and gently forced water through his gills with a small pipette; was not very successful but he spat most of the eggs out upon release). Turns out all four of the tumblers I have are quite useless (should've invested in some quality ones) and so I had to make do with a tilted specimen container with airline tubing (airstone was too strong). Hope it works; there's some very gentle flow but not much. Looks like only ~40% of the eggs were fertilized (out of 20 or so); if I actually manage to get fry I doubt I'll have many.
What's odd is how swollen the female appears to be; she didn't seem to lose much weight at all and it almost looks as though she's ready to spawn again (breeding stripes, ravenous appetite, visible ovipositor, etc). Think I will have to separate the male; poor fellow's probably really worn out.
 

fishorama

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Oh that seems like way too much "spawning help" to me. I'm sure I would not have tried so hard. But you did! Like I've said before I have no idea what your fish need to be successful breeders.

Sometimes it helps to "condition" the pair separately if you have tank space. Maybe your "skinny boy" just isn't up to the task? He, if like some other bettas, has the egg & early fry care. I don't know, just some thoughts...without much actual good advice.

Are you sure you are offering the "right" water conditions? Some fish need specific water parameters, not just to breed but for the eggs to hatch. Have you asked on betta specific forums? I'd guess those are often spendens help...but search around.

I'll follow along but I really don't have any good ideas. Good Luck!
 
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Fallen_Leaves16

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Oh that seems like way too much "spawning help" to me. I'm sure I would not have tried so hard. But you did! Like I've said before I have no idea what your fish need to be successful breeders.

Sometimes it helps to "condition" the pair separately if you have tank space. Maybe your "skinny boy" just isn't up to the task? He, if like some other bettas, has the egg & early fry care. I don't know, just some thoughts...without much actual good advice.

Are you sure you are offering the "right" water conditions? Some fish need specific water parameters, not just to breed but for the eggs to hatch. Have you asked on betta specific forums? I'd guess those are often spendens help...but search around.

I'll follow along but I really don't have any good ideas. Good Luck!
Very overdue for an update, but the female kept harassing the male too much (and had two more spawns since the last update, both of which were swallowed by the male within 2-3 days). The makeshift ramshackle egg tumbler of sorts failed (airstone somehow popped free of the tubing) and all the eggs fungused :( )
The water params and whatnot all fall into the ideal range for them, so thankfully that didn't seem to be a problem. Unfortunately, a lot of the larger betta communities on the web seem to have gotten quite "gate-keepey" and I decided against actively joining one.
Think I might have to stop the thread here, as unfortunately, a random Silurus I chucked into the tank (for little good reason except that I, quite foolishly in hindsight, figured it couldn't eat anything and would probably appreciate the extra room) seems to have somehow eaten the female pallifina within a few hours. I mean, it could've at least done itself some good and eaten something else, like that random platy that I haven't been able to catch... but noo, it just had to go for that one betta that was almost too large to eat...
Needless to say, it has been promptly evicted and resumes sulking in a PVC pipe. Oh well.
The male pallifina seems really happy about the new arrangement, though; if there's any fish that'd be happy about its mate dying, it'd be this guy. Much more active and outgoing (or at least getting to that point), and eats with greater enthusiasm. Poor fellow must've had to deal with quite the partner. At least he's doing better now.

On the off chance that you might know, is there any breeder or vendor that sells mature B. pallifina in the U.S. nowadays? Can't seem to find any, except one or two international wholesalers with mandatory bulk purchases and high shipping costs.
 

fishorama

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Well, I'm interested but no ideas ...but if things change, I'd love to learn more.

Often with rarer fish, there just isn't much info to help.

I'm sure you're aware of WetSpot, aquabid & many betta sites more than I know.

Don't give up, it can be small adjustments in temp or water params that do the breeding trick. Besides, it's fun to try to find the "magic" key to breed any species, lol.

Don't be a stranger here on AC, I'm not the only 1 paying attention but I maybe more chatty than some...
 
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It is pretty simple. When one is serious about successful spawning and subsequent raising of fry, in most cases this requires a species tank. I say most because some fish spawn and depossit there eggs with those of another species to beraised by that other species' parent(s).

With most bettas you need to separate the parents after a successful spawn. The only bettas I have spawned were imbellis. However, I also spawned one mouth brooding cichlid- P. nicholsi. But the mom held the eggs until they were free swimming and let them out. The male had to be removed as soon as she was holding because he harassed her all the time.

The first spawn was a success and mom spit a nice brood of young and I was quite happy. 36 hours later there were no fry left- she ate them all. So the next time I stripped her when she was close to spitting and put the fry in the tank and she went elsewhere. I did this by netting her and while in the net in a bucket of water I raised her to be partly above the surface and she began spitting. I lowered the net and then maneuvered to to release the fry into the bucket. I then raised her again and she spit some more. I got alll the fry out that way.

I managed to grow out the fry. When I had reunited the mom and dad after the first spawn, he killed her and had to grow out a dayghter to get another spawn. Ultimately I sold some of the kids and then gave the rest and the parents away to a friend.

The point is, breed your fish in a dedicated tank. Be able to remove one parent after a spawn. Be prepared to remove the other when the fry are spit.

As for finding the needed male, and getting better info than I can offer, have you tried the IBC?
https://www.ibcbettas.org/about-international-betta-congress/

I know nothing about these guys but they are in CA. The have what you want in stock: https://bwaquatics.com/products/6qkuko5edszpeouygearvg6ca9e5y1

They also have imbellis.
 
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fishorama

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Oh, I'm not sure I understood the OP to be in CA. In NorCal there is a betta society in SF...like many betta sites, mostly splendens but others too! Look around!

In early May my SF bay area plant club will be having a meet in Oakland. I plan to come. PM me if you might want to come. You'll have to join with your actual real name, that's what we do. A bit less active since covid but still fun...Think about it! But think fast! 2 weeks or so, time's running out!

Fallen Leaves, are you in Nor Cal? Pm me if you are & want more info, I'll help as best I can...
 
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