Chilodonella

[Cerianthus]

Hey Cerianthus

I hope you're right about Quick Cure!

From what I read Malachite Green is not an antibiotic. Formalin is bacteriostatic - it will at worst slow down the biological filter - This pathogen had been introduced to the whole tank and I did not see alternative.
Final call is no one else's but yours since only you can thoroughly see what maybe taking place in the tank.

The plants are fine - the new crypt (so pretty) hasn't melted so I think things are okay. They have never responded negatively to any medication I've had to use, including salt (which I use regularly). Keep us posted well after treatment is done!

While I appreciate your point of view - You bring up so many good points :thm: I honestly think people are to using medication in hopes a "natural fix" will cure things - all antibiotics are natural in origin... It would be the same as having a child that has an infected ear and telling the doctor "no, I'll not give him/her antibiotics, I'll use Echinacea because it's natural..."
Do you really thinks so as I feel the opposite from what Ive been reading in many forums.
Dont know how long ago you took MicroBio but bit disappointed as not all antibiotics avail are natural in origin as of yet if memory serves.

I'm old fashioned - Use what is necessary and does the best job.
Dont know about that approach w/o knowing what we are up against.


For example: In my experience both Pimafix, Melafix have done nothing the few times I've used them - other than smell awful :silly:
Really! I thought aroma wasnt that bad if memory serves but again it has been close to 20 yrs since used Mel..


My friend who breeds Angels has had no luck with them either - He's always had to resort to a serious medication and the time it took to see if the "natural" treatment works gave the pathogen enough time to kill the fish and infect others... They are now used in addition to a known treatment - Never again as the first line of defense.
Didnt even have space for them in my Fish Med cabinets.

This may cause other issues - but I consider the consequences whenever I add something to my tank I hope my 3+ month saga of treating the Angel proves this, haha... what we do for our pets
Like I said, I wouldve tried much more if was my fish.
I would never just settle until my curiosities has been fulfilled/fish healed but always after thorough analysis/considerations/planning otherwise I wouldnt have made any progress.

I wish I had your patience I stopped using microscopes in Micro Biology

I've used the stickies first each time I've tried to diagnose. They are helpful tools when trying to confirm the pathogen - but ultimately I used the link I provided because it was clear and easy to follow. That's why I added it because it may help someone else. There need to be images added to the stickies - there weren't any for many of the diseases - which is why I looked elsewhere for more information.
Good enough as should use what works for you.
My main goal was so that one would read entire thread ever so thoroughly in order to narrow down possibilities. In doing so, one may discover and remember one or few diseases that one wasnt aware of thus broaden their perspectives on fish pathology.

:cheers:

 

[pacpac2]

I had an isolated case of what I believed to be Chilodinella, only after treating for other things that did not change after treatment. I investigated many arenas and finally decided to use potassim permanganate(?). The symptoms disappeared in two days. The fish has been with me ever since. About 9 months now. It did stunt my plants and killed off a few snails, but all my fish survived and thrive. Oh, and my plants have since grown back.

 

[sundragon]

Thank you - 10 days - I will be doing 3 doses and water change two more times. I use salt 1tbs per 5 gallons on a regular basis so that may be helping, IDK.

It is good that you're doing the half dose in view of the sensitive fish, though if there is a parasitic infestation of either Chilodonella or Glosatella it can take up to 10 days to cure. Watch carefully for excessive slime production. Get photos for us, if you do see that.

I remember in Bio's thread the fish would get better, then get worse, then get better again, which we attributed to her use of salt. We pretty much concluded that the salt had somewhat of an inhibitory effect, but did not eradicate the parasite and so the fish eventually succumbed.

The Quick Cure may be doing the job, hopefully and that's why you aren't seeing more blatant signs, i.e., excessive slime hanging off in sheets and strings.

Having said all that, there's still no way to say that this is absolutely what is going on, but the others are staying steady so hopefully the diagnosis is correct and the treatment is working. The best you can do is just keep watching for any other signs, symptoms, or behavioral changes that can point to other possiblilties.

Do monitor you water carefully and keep the parameters perfect; this can only help your guys as they fight whatever this is. Keep up the good work and keep us posted, we are all pulling for you.

 

[sundragon]

Wait, 10 days? Was that with salt?
Quick Cure shows only a 3 day treatment on it's label - I don't see anything that prescribes 10 days with malachite green and formalin as the course of treatment - Can someone please confirm. I'm going to do the water change - another dose won't kill the fish - but I have just checked with the forum stickie and it has no information on length of treatment.

 

[sundragon]

Just looked up google and one source says:
http://www.koi-fish.co.uk/acatalog/chilodonella.html
"Treatment: A single treatment of Formaldehyde/Malachite or Potassium Permanganate solution should be effective or a course of Parazoryne"

I do not want to put the tank through an extended unecessary treatment - I have tetra and loaches - Please tell me where it dictates 10 days treatment using Malachite Green and Formalin?

 

[sundragon]

Just posting another link:
http://www.happy-goldfish.com/chilodonella.php
"How to treat Chilodonella? Luckily, chilodonella is easy to treat and one treatment is usually sufficient."
"Usual treatments are: Potassium Permanganate, Malachite and formalin, Copper baths, Salt baths"

These are both Goldfish/koi sites. Unless someone posts information to the contrary - I'm going to trust that 1 course of treatment per the label is enough.

 

[sundragon]

Hey C

Is it easier with marine fish? :eek3:

:cheers:

 

[mel_20_20]

Hey Sundragon, I would just go with the directions on the Quick Cure. I should have been more specific about why I said that.

I've never had to treat Chilodonella, personally, but I know of the experience of a couple of people, my neighbor is one of them and she has Loaches, that had to go 10 days with Quick Cure at a reduced dose and about 1/2 teaspoon of salt per gallon of water treating sensitive fish. The other person is a lady that runs a mom and pop fish store, locally.

My neighbor treated at half or a bit less than half dose, waited 48 hours and then did a huge water change. She did this over a period of 10 days and the fish recovered.

I haven't had to treat Chilodonella or Glosatella, so I can't speak from personal experience on this subject; my recommendation would be to just go with the directions and watch to see if it looks like the symptoms persist or flare back up.

Sorry I didn't get back here sooner to check on things; I should have given more details on the whole "10 day treatment" comment. I'm glad you decided to go with the manufacturers directions on the Quick Cure.

 

[Cerianthus]

Hey C

Is it easier with marine fish? :eek3:

Again, havnt seen vid of fish in question but still if rest havnt shown any changes, usually starts with changes in swimming behavior/movments.
Until then, hopefully not, be patience!! I know waiting s-----. but could learn alot if you do.

No questions/issues with your first treatment plans at least from me based on your descriptions, I would just stick to it and monitor.

As mater of facts, it maybe much easier with most marine fish in ref to ectoparasites (no med, just f/w dip) as long as one can detect any changes in their movements/behaviors way before they stop eating/displys physical changes. & reverse at varying [NaCl]/duration can be applied for most f/w but not for all.

I remember when dealing with rows and rows and rows of tanks, couldnt spend too much time on all tanks with magnifying glass/stethoscope: to detect any changes/possible problems.
I learned to detect most problems at early stage just by observing/noticing any changes in their behaviors as I moved thru the aisles. Different fish displays diffrent normal behaviors to my presence/shadows. This would be my PRELIMINARY round.
Anything out of ordinary (one or few or alll fish) would get closer look, My second round and so on.

Monitoring feeding behavior is another way but even sick fish may be drawn to food thus may miss what I may/can detect on my Preliminary round.

Keeping my finger crossed!

btw, condition of water can yield different reactions to meds by fish as well as condition of fish at time time of exposure to meds. Another word, fish in ideal condition fare lot better to exposure to ectopasite meds than fish which seemd to have thrived in unideal conditions + other factors, etc, etc.

 

[sundragon]

Quick Update:

• Fish are fine
• Plants are fine
• Water parameters are fine
• Pet owner still crazy :evil_lol:

I decided to go with another round of treatment, yesterday. I was afraid that if it requires a longer treatment, breaking it off and restarting it would only help the pathogen get resistant to the treatment.

Today is day 2 of second treatment (1/2 dose daily for tetra/loaches for 3 days then water change after 3rd day).

I will do two courses total of treatment as I don't see any symptoms on the fish.

I will comment that Quick Cure has been pretty stellar and easy to use. It doesn't stink up the tank. None of the plants have died (yet)... I would highly prefer this to 10 days of salt baths and messing with the fish...