CO2 Questions (new setup)

[fresh_newby]

ok ...get the kh tested out of the tap....then we will go from there. I think you should take out everything BUT your bio-media and your filtration....i.e. take the peat out of your filter so you can then test the tank water with the wood in it and no alterations.

 

[djlen]

I will respond on this thread one more time to say this.
If you have access to an AP test kit you will get a ballpark result of what you're holding.
That's really all you need. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on expensive test kits. Hobby level kits are not the most accurate but really don't need to be.
If you want to stabilize your pH while injecting CO2 use crushed coral in the filter or in the tank. It will raise your pH and kH, buffer your water and IME not affect plant growth negatively. Baking soda is a quick fix, short term solution, that if used over a prolonged period of time will yo-yo kH and stress fish unless very, very careful application is followed almost daily.
I'm not going to argue with a child over a topic that I've dealt with successfully for years. I've never had anyone reply to my advice regarding the kH/CO2/pH relationship in a negative way. I have had people correspond with me over pH that went south because of improper buffer. It's not fun to lose a tank full of fish when it is very easy to guard against.


Len

 

[Brilliant]

I will respond on this thread one more time to say this.
If you have access to an AP test kit you will get a ballpark result of what you're holding.
That's really all you need. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on expensive test kits. Hobby level kits are not the most accurate but really don't need to be.
If you want to stabilize your pH while injecting CO2 use crushed coral in the filter or in the tank. It will raise your pH and kH, buffer your water and IME not affect plant growth negatively. Baking soda is a quick fix, short term solution, that if used over a prolonged period of time will yo-yo kH and stress fish unless very, very careful application is followed almost daily.
I'm not going to argue with a child over a topic that I've dealt with successfully for years. I've never had anyone reply to my advice regarding the kH/CO2/pH relationship in a negative way. I have had people correspond with me over pH that went south because of improper buffer. It's not fun to lose a tank full of fish when it is very easy to guard against.


Len

I can tell you that the hobbyist test kits like the ones you mentioned arent even close to accurate.

I can tell you that baking soda's short term is long enough.

I can tell you that if your buffering with crushed coral that doesnt make you experienced.

There is no need to argue, there is also no room for telling someone they are inexperienced when they clearly are.

There are two correct ways to buffer water in the aquarium, crushed coral and baking soda. One effects GH the other doesnt.

In most cases fish lost to co2 isnt because of pH. Please dont push your fear of pH crash onto everyone else.

I am injecting co2 with soft water and according to the test kits your suggest 0 KH.

 

[thadius65]

Okay, some tap water readings:

3 dKH - 53.7ppm
5 dGH-89.5ppm
6.6 PH

It is much easier to use this aquarium pharm test kit when it changes to blue and orange with first drop with tap as opposed to almost blue or orange with tank water....

So, in theory, removing peat and with a normal water change or two, I should be closer to the tap (except what the wood may be doing), correct?

Thanks,
Ted

 

[fresh_newby]

Okay, some tap water readings:

3 dKH - 53.7ppm
5 dGH-89.5ppm
6.6 PH

It is much easier to use this aquarium pharm test kit when it changes to blue and orange with first drop with tap as opposed to almost blue or orange with tank water....

So, in theory, removing peat and with a normal water change or two, I should be closer to the tap (except what the wood may be doing), correct?

Thanks,
Ted

Hey Ted:

Remove the peat, do a couple water changes and get a reading.
Your parms are similar to mine....you will NOT need to add crappy coral, and you won't need to use bicarb. Get that reading without the peat and some water changes under your belt. Your tap parms are an aquatic gardner's dream. Cool beans.
Since I have Dj whatever on block, I will speak to you directly, or you can also pm me as to not perpetuate the negativity that mister know it all seems to have. You will want your pH controller to about 6.5 to get around 28ppm CO2 wich will make your plants and fish happy. If you so choose, like I do, you may want to have your CO2 turn off with your lights at night. No sense in wasting the gas from your cylinder when the lights are out and the plants don't utilize much that way. Also you can sleep knowing the CO2 is off....

 

[fresh_newby]

I can tell you that the hobbyist test kits like the ones you mentioned arent even close to accurate.

I can tell you that baking soda's short term is long enough.

I can tell you that if your buffering with crushed coral that doesnt make you experienced.

There is no need to argue, there is also no room for telling someone they are inexperienced when they clearly are.

There are two correct ways to buffer water in the aquarium, crushed coral and baking soda. One effects GH the other doesnt.

In most cases fish lost to co2 isnt because of pH. Please dont push your fear of pH crash onto everyone else.

I am injecting co2 with soft water and according to the test kits your suggest 0 KH.

Brilliant...you are Brilliant!

 

[fresh_newby]

I disagree whole heartedly.
I have run my pH from 5.8 to 6.2 with a KH of 2 and pressurized CO2, since March. No problems and crazy plant growth. That is a myth...pH crashes and the like. If your KH is around two as mine is as it comes out of my tap, it is fine. I use a pH controller and pressurized tank with an Aqua Medic reactor as well. Don't be afraid of low KH and low pH...it is your friend. The plants absolutely love it, and happy plants are happy fish!

IME Fish don't die from low pH. If that were the case then the streams and lakes in South America that are loaded with fish and a pH of 4.5, would merely be a figment of our imagination.

 

[Orgo]

If you're a scientist fresh_newby, you should know that what you are seeing is the way science has been for the past few centuries. There's a generally accepted idea, then evidence comes along to challenge these ideas. Some people accept the new theories, many people reject them, and you get lots of back and forth arguments, even childish behavior and name calling among big names and seasoned professionals. This goes on to this day. It's part of the scientific process and how new discoveries are made.

In this case, I would put myself in the "new" crowd djlin. The way this all came about is with users of ADA Aqua Soil, a semi-fired clay with strong negative physio electric charges. It has quite a strong effect on lowering GH and KH. Most users of Aqua Soil setting up ADA style tanks don't bother to test, they just use the Aqua Soil, get great results with healthy and happy plants and fish, and that's it. But some people knew that they already had tap water with a low KH. So they tested their KH to see what it was, and lo and behold, the test kits immediately showed the "end" color on the first drop - 0 KH!

It turns out that these extremely low KH as well as GH levels are typical in tanks maintained by Amano/ADA - they publish these specs in their catalogs and in Aqua Journal. And we all know how successful these tanks are.

We also know that many areas of the Amazon where plants and fish thrive also have very low (sometimes undetectable) KH and GH.

So what's going on? The old idea was that without buffering, the pH would crash and that would kill the fish. Why is that not happening?

Well, water with a low KH means that you will see a faster and sharper pH swing when acids or bases are added. That means if you put too much CO2 into the tank, you will see a very low pH.

But is it the low pH that is killing the fish, or is it too high a level of CO2 and/or a combination of too little dissolved oxygen?

After a lot of testing and reporting among many hobbyists, the latter seems to be the theory that is likely to be the correct one.

Again fresh_newby, for a very long time the accepted notion was to keep the KH at a minimum of 3. When you are presenting new evidence to challenge long held ideas, you are going to get resistance, and it is going to take a lot of time, energy, explanation, debate, and evidence to get the new ideas into general acceptance.

djlin, I encourage you to keep and open mind and if you can do some of your own experimenting and investigation to test these new ideas so you can properly rethink your stance and better support it.

 

[Brilliant]

Orgo that was well put.

It seems this fear of pH crash is inhibiting the hobby from exploring these new realms and it is hard to digest certain advice sometimes.

 

[fresh_newby]

I hear your Orgo, and I am not pushing my ideas or thoughts, I am merely stating them, and as you can see, I got not only the condescending attitude but I was even called a "child" because I don't have the same line of thinking. Though I appreciate being called a child...lol....I am merely trying to point out a different experience based on observation, and try to maybe make people think a little, that maybe a widely held phobia is not, in fact, true. This is precisely what these such forums exist, no?

IMO you are 100% correct in thinking that fish loss is due to people od'ing the CO2 and that is coupled with too little dissolved O2. If you maintain your desired pH, this should not be a problem. If the pH drops below desired, turn off your CO2, if it is too high, turn it on. Adding buffers and equilibrators, and the like are not necessary IMO, and yes Aqua soil 's KH lowering proerties were precisely what initiated many of us to experiment this way to begin with. Hard to grow species and even the easy ones clearly exhibit faster growth, better coloring, better leaf formation and easier propagation. Not everyone can afford aquasoil, so these properties were put to the test, since many of us, luckily, have soft water.

Happy plants are happy fish....as long as you do not overdo the CO2. my kH is right around 2.5, so my pH is kept at 6.4-6.6. when it drops to 6.3, my CO2 is off, but if I keep it on 3bps while the lights are on, and have it turn off when the lights turn off, everyone is happy. The delta in pH overnight is about 2 tenths and is easily returned to proper levels when the lights and CO2 come back on.

My inhabitants include, Amano shrimp, cherries, a couple of wood shrimp, as well as red line sharks, Bosemani rainbows, some swordtails some cardinals, Bororas brigittae, 2 SAE, 2 plecos, 10 otos and my trusty Betta. All that have a mating pair have spawned since I did this. Even my Olive Nerites reproduce in my tank.

Anyway, if anyone would like to further discuss this constructively, I invite you to do so :idea: