Amquel, not the "plus" formulation, can have pH effects which definitely could adversely affect the tender bacteria. Think of all of the posts we have seen from folks w/soft water locking up with low pH from the start of nitrification and then no progress until the KH/pH is corrected. Marineland would have no difficulty defending that position. The original Amquel could easily do the same from the getgo.
Complete die off w / bio-spira
- Thread starter SciFiFan42
- Start date
No, no, no ammonia in a planted tank!
If this tank has live plants, just feed the plants, let the ich die off in a few weeks with no hosts.
Keep the plants growing, feed them lightly, and when the plants are looking wonderful, add fish. The growing plants will easily consume any ammonia the fish make.
No "fishless cycling" for planted tanks!!
daveedka said:
If this tank has live plants, just feed the plants, let the ich die off in a few weeks with no hosts.
Keep the plants growing, feed them lightly, and when the plants are looking wonderful, add fish. The growing plants will easily consume any ammonia the fish make.
No "fishless cycling" for planted tanks!!
Here is the next installment from Marineland tech. Warning, this is LONG and I have not read it all yet:
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:14:44 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"
is not harmful to fish, but the bacteria can not process it either. By taking away its food source (ammonia) the bacteria may not perform as expected. If Bio-Spira is being used in a new set up an ammonia binder is no longer necessary as the bacteria will immediately go to work to consume any available ammonia and nitrites present. I also feel that I should mention that certain tests kits will yield a false positive if ammonium is present in the system. I believe it is the Nessler method that will read ammonium as ammonia. This gives the illusion that ammonia is present in the system when it really is Bio-Spira is a bacteria additive that has always existed in established aquariums. We have not engineered or produced a type new bacteria, rather through scientific research we have been able to identify the correct ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. We currently hold patents and patents pending on these strains of bacteria. No other bacterial additive on the market will perform like Bio-Spira does simply because they are not using the correct types of bacteria. The reality is that the other stuff on the market may help to encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria but are not the real oxidizers (http://www.marineland.com/science/reports/15amoxbact.asp). The two types of bacteria contained in Bio-Spira have been around for ages and are very hardy and hard to mishandle. Aside from freezing the bacteria the only other ways to really kill it would be to let it dry up, or to place it in unstable water conditions.
Of course our water conditioners will work best with Bio-Spira. We have tested and designed our chemicals to compliment our bacteria. Most other water conditioners will work fine too. Please keep in mind that there are quite a few water conditioners on the market and we simply have not tested them all. The problem with products such as Amquel is that it contains an ammonia binder. An ammonia binder will cause a chemical reaction which alters ammonia and changes it into ammonium. Ammonium in an altered form, ammonium.
It is okay to use a product such as Prime or Amquel to initially treat the water. It will bind any ammonia in the water. Once fish are added they will produce more ammonia in their waste and allow the Bio-Spira to go to work. As stated on the package we recommend adding the bacteria at the same time the fish are added. If done properly the tank should be set up, filled with treated or filtered water and left to run for 24 hours. This will allow the chemical water conditioners to do their job and will also let the water temperature stabilize.
I have heard some reports that people continue to add Prime, Amquel or similar water conditioners for several days or weeks after setting up a new tank to keep ammonia at a "safe" level or as a preventive to promote "healthy fish". This is completely unnecessary when using Bio-Spira and can create an unstable environment for the fish and for the bacteria. I understand that an overdose of said water conditioners may cause a rapid drop in pH. As we all know this might shock everything in the system. I recommend following the directions listed on the products you choose to use. Don't just squirt a bunch of water conditioner in the tank. If its 5 drops for 10 gallons, be sure to measure 5 drops.
Speaking from my personal experience, I have had the opportunity to use Bio-Spira on several occasions. I have found that a tank will generally complete its "cycle" in about 3-5 days. During the first few days the ammonia and nitrites levels may spike slightly but will stay within a safe range for the fish. I have never seen these levels rise above .5ppm but I have had some customers report levels as high as 2.0 (still within a high/safe range). Likewise I have had some customers report that Bio-Spira has completely cycled their tank within 24 hours. I have not experienced such fast results but have always been satisfied with the products performance. Keep in mind that variables such as tank size, water chemistry, stocking density, amount and frequency that the tank is fed and so on; all play into the speed at which a tank will cycle with or without Bio-Spira. I feel that it is not so much an issue of what one can or can't use, rather it is most important to follow the directions. We have tried to simplify the process into 4 easy steps with our product line. Bio-Safe, Bio-Spira, Bio-Coat and Bio-Blend. Please let me know if you have any further Q's
----------------------------------
Roan
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:14:44 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To: "Eileen Kortright"
is not harmful to fish, but the bacteria can not process it either. By taking away its food source (ammonia) the bacteria may not perform as expected. If Bio-Spira is being used in a new set up an ammonia binder is no longer necessary as the bacteria will immediately go to work to consume any available ammonia and nitrites present. I also feel that I should mention that certain tests kits will yield a false positive if ammonium is present in the system. I believe it is the Nessler method that will read ammonium as ammonia. This gives the illusion that ammonia is present in the system when it really is Bio-Spira is a bacteria additive that has always existed in established aquariums. We have not engineered or produced a type new bacteria, rather through scientific research we have been able to identify the correct ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. We currently hold patents and patents pending on these strains of bacteria. No other bacterial additive on the market will perform like Bio-Spira does simply because they are not using the correct types of bacteria. The reality is that the other stuff on the market may help to encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria but are not the real oxidizers (http://www.marineland.com/science/reports/15amoxbact.asp). The two types of bacteria contained in Bio-Spira have been around for ages and are very hardy and hard to mishandle. Aside from freezing the bacteria the only other ways to really kill it would be to let it dry up, or to place it in unstable water conditions.
Of course our water conditioners will work best with Bio-Spira. We have tested and designed our chemicals to compliment our bacteria. Most other water conditioners will work fine too. Please keep in mind that there are quite a few water conditioners on the market and we simply have not tested them all. The problem with products such as Amquel is that it contains an ammonia binder. An ammonia binder will cause a chemical reaction which alters ammonia and changes it into ammonium. Ammonium in an altered form, ammonium.
It is okay to use a product such as Prime or Amquel to initially treat the water. It will bind any ammonia in the water. Once fish are added they will produce more ammonia in their waste and allow the Bio-Spira to go to work. As stated on the package we recommend adding the bacteria at the same time the fish are added. If done properly the tank should be set up, filled with treated or filtered water and left to run for 24 hours. This will allow the chemical water conditioners to do their job and will also let the water temperature stabilize.
I have heard some reports that people continue to add Prime, Amquel or similar water conditioners for several days or weeks after setting up a new tank to keep ammonia at a "safe" level or as a preventive to promote "healthy fish". This is completely unnecessary when using Bio-Spira and can create an unstable environment for the fish and for the bacteria. I understand that an overdose of said water conditioners may cause a rapid drop in pH. As we all know this might shock everything in the system. I recommend following the directions listed on the products you choose to use. Don't just squirt a bunch of water conditioner in the tank. If its 5 drops for 10 gallons, be sure to measure 5 drops.
Speaking from my personal experience, I have had the opportunity to use Bio-Spira on several occasions. I have found that a tank will generally complete its "cycle" in about 3-5 days. During the first few days the ammonia and nitrites levels may spike slightly but will stay within a safe range for the fish. I have never seen these levels rise above .5ppm but I have had some customers report levels as high as 2.0 (still within a high/safe range). Likewise I have had some customers report that Bio-Spira has completely cycled their tank within 24 hours. I have not experienced such fast results but have always been satisfied with the products performance. Keep in mind that variables such as tank size, water chemistry, stocking density, amount and frequency that the tank is fed and so on; all play into the speed at which a tank will cycle with or without Bio-Spira. I feel that it is not so much an issue of what one can or can't use, rather it is most important to follow the directions. We have tried to simplify the process into 4 easy steps with our product line. Bio-Safe, Bio-Spira, Bio-Coat and Bio-Blend. Please let me know if you have any further Q's
----------------------------------
Roan
Yup, I wasn't thinking about the plants when I made that reply. Assuming enough plant mass and good growth you will be fine with plants. If not enough plant mass and growth you still don't want ammonia as this is a recipe for green algae blooms. More detail can be found in the cycling article.
Sorry about any confusion this may have caused.
Dave
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The longer response from Marineland looks good to me. Well reasoned and well written. The only thing I could wish were present would be a warning against Amquel in low KH water, but their site water may not be soft and so not tested for such. Also it might well be impolitic to cite negatively a 'competitor'.
Hi Everyone,
Wow -- I'm learning more from this discussion than I have from reading weeks of posts on the forums.
In any case, my tank is well planted, I think. Would one large marble radican, 14 Anacharis, 8 Cabomba, 4 Radican Sword , and 3 Anubias nana constitute a well planted 40 gallon aquarium? They are all growing beautifully (except for some unsightly "air/water roots" that I'll trim back this weekend). By feed them, do you mean with extra CO/2 or with a bit of fish food to provide food for the bacteria?
Also, I've noticed that my algae is beginning to get a bit out of control -- will this be a problem -- should I act on it?
As always, I appreciate the comments, and I hope that others are benefiting from this discussion as well.
Sarah
Wow -- I'm learning more from this discussion than I have from reading weeks of posts on the forums.
In any case, my tank is well planted, I think. Would one large marble radican, 14 Anacharis, 8 Cabomba, 4 Radican Sword , and 3 Anubias nana constitute a well planted 40 gallon aquarium? They are all growing beautifully (except for some unsightly "air/water roots" that I'll trim back this weekend). By feed them, do you mean with extra CO/2 or with a bit of fish food to provide food for the bacteria?
Also, I've noticed that my algae is beginning to get a bit out of control -- will this be a problem -- should I act on it?
As always, I appreciate the comments, and I hope that others are benefiting from this discussion as well.
Sarah
