culling matters

[Star_Rider]

easydoesit
just how much studying have you done on the circumstances concerning deer ,carrying capacity, deforestation etc.?.I would suspect None.



I would also suggest you study up on the 'inbreeding' of fish as it happens quite frequently in nature..many of the species are located in habitats that 'isolate' them..Altum Angels are one species. as are the Species of Discus. asd well as many other Cichlids.
The difference is the gene pool.
Yes there arer many wild caught fish..but..many of the species you find in the LFS are captive bred and are far removed from the wild lines they were selected from.
btw, I am not trying to 'change' your mind..but try to shed some light.
it's great to have an opinion..but substantiate it with facts.
btw, surrounding the captive breeding..it really boils down to costs..if they captive breeder felt morally obligated to sustain all the fish that are raised..they would not be in business long.
and low and behold we would have few fish to select from at the stores.

would you then consider that you are now part of the equation? by simply being a fish keeper you support these habits.

 

[lucy42083]

Star_rider, you have once again said it much better than I could.

 

[Dwarf Puffers]

Hmm. This thread kind of dissapoints me. Here I was thinking many people were like me, someone who feels bad culling a guppy with a curved spine. I'm not a "wimp". I value life greatly.

I don't see how some of you are going on about "the best genetics" and "healthy stock"... All of those other fish besides the 2 slightly prettier ones were, compared to typical stock, rare beauties. I don't support culling for the best colors. I despise it. I think anyone who does it should look at themselves and their impurities and just give it a thought. You aren't perfect. Should they have given you a lethal injection or just bloody well chopped off your head when you were born? Good thing you lived on to kill others who weren't as fortunate as you.

I would pay for any of the firemouths shown. Any of them. Not just the 2 who are portrayed as "much healthier" because they have a look to their fins and a bit more color at the time than others.

I do not understand fish breeding maniacs killing beautiful fish in a worthless quest for perfection. It will never be achieved, you are just wasting life. Take a look at wild fish. Healthy fish have little color. They need to blend in to not be eaten. Your "special" fish would be gone faster than the others in the wild.

I think humane culling of sick, seriously injured, suffering, or deformed fish is fine. Great, even. These fish are suffering and unhealthy. Your firemouths, however, are not.

If you're just interested in breeding fish for the best coloring and killing (as juvenile as it may seem, murdering) many healthy fish should be kept to yourself. I believe the term "fish enthusiast" would indicate a love of marine life, and as is clearly stated, much enthusiasm for it. Nothing really points to people who kill very many to try and get prettier fish for a larger market value. After this long and deserved flame, I'm still boiling with disgust. I'd love if this thread was closed and left to gather dust.

-DP :angryfire:

 

[Easydoesit]

im done dude. substantiate it with facts, im talking more along moral lines here, what i said wasnt wrong, i wasnt getting into crazy detail not knowing wtf i was talking about.
and again, your talking money here. i dont really care? i havnt made that clear i guess. and its possible to be successful doing the right thing at the same time.
and the deer thing? hey i wasnt throwing out any false statistics or anything, and saying that there is a growing deer population because of lack of predators and the growing deforestation is a safe and legit thing to say.
i am an unknowing part of the equation, and a very minor part at that.
and yes i do have opinions, theyre not usually so strongly stated bc i accept that it is just the way things are. but im pmsing, and you guys got me going.
im done, people are just repeating themselves. go ahead, ask more questions, tell me i dont know what im talking about, i really dont care, youre gonna be talking to yourself... either that or itll end up a bunch of you guys agreeing with eachother, but really.. nothing is going to 'shed light' on the fact that the whole killing a living thing for looks is wrong to me.
nothing that you say, nada, zero. thats what its about to me.. killing something for looks... money... ladida.

 

[wataugachicken]

i totally was going to offer to buy a dozen of them, but then my boyfriend walked into the room and told me i couldn't have any. so that's why i didn't offer.

 

[dixienut]

the term culling isn't just the main term it is disposing the selected ones out of the breeding gene pool. with larger animals it means also to castrate or spay, and also to take fish to lfs, like i do, i haven't had the need to cull/kill yet but i don't breed that intensely, all my ones go to lfs, for cheap and not make money or for free like some in my posts, as i hate to give away for free, something they will sell to others for 40.+ bucks.. i did that with my angels.. ticked me off they said before they would give me some food items but when i got there they took them and disapeared into the back trying to ignore me...

but some instead of getting the shaft or letting the stores screw the people that buy them,.. just do feed them to other fish or other means to cull,
i had my guppies on here for a while and very few people wanted them so i was getting low on feed,. so i packed up 72 of them and took them to lfs just to get them out, so relax,.... even here, people are full up on their tanks,

and as for unwanted human babies, there are thousands alone in government places, to never have a family....why.....because people only want the prettiest and most perfect ones,........the others are left to be outcast of society,...... the ones not culled, tortured and damaged by their plight,... to rebel against society for who know the reason they are there... nothing is fair and nothing is easy nor is it morally right,.. but we do what little we can and live on from here ,..day to day trying to make the right judgements for our own lives ,.. the best we can and that all we can do... for there is always something more wrong, in another place,.. let try to clean our own life the way we see fit for no ones right in anothers eyes.....

 

[Star_Rider]

unfortunately killing animals for money is status quo.

it happens on large scale on factory fishing ships. so people can eat.

large scale deforestation..lol
I suggest you check the fact that in old growth the animals live on the fringes..where there is more food.
actually areas where timber was harvested will create more habitat for animals in a couple years.. the sun can get to the ground and regenerate plants that the animals benefit from.
mt St Helens eruption many thought would take hundreds if not thousands of years to recover..the fact is..the animals are showing in huge numbers...trees are growing and what do ya know..abundant plant life.

there is more to the story regarding over population od the deer. I am afraid that sometimes the information that gets out may be somewhat misleading.

be that as it may..culling does not always mean killing the fish that are less than perfect..that's what the LFS is for.



easydoesit,

you have an opinion..by all means voice it..just be aware that others also have an opinion.
this is not a direct attack on you..but many just offering more information.

chill out

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

WOW!!!

Things got a little

First of all and foremost, this IS A HOBBY!
In this hobby we keep fish mainly because of their colors and shapes. We pick the ones we like because it appeals to us.
With that said, we venture on to learn how to care for our fish and in many cases, breed them.

Breeding can become successful and some people can actually make money from them. I breed fish for show purposes and do not sell many at all. In 10 years I have sold less than 20 fish. It has also already been stated that an LFS will not take a steady supply of a common fish. They are not interested and would rather support paying to have fish shipped into L.A. from Singapore.

Too many, culling is killing and unnecessary. But to those who breed thousands of fish there is no other option except NOT to breed the fish to begin with. Breeding is a challenging experience and I find it rewarding, even if thousands of fish die. It is an inevitable part of our hobby and will not go away.

However, there is an incredible upside to this if you feel emotionally compelled to SAVE A LIFE!!! There is the American Cichlid Association C.A.R.E.S. Program!!!
Please visit this Forum if you seriously want to help with Conservation and make a difference in this hobby and world as many of the fish we keep are already endangered and many have also become extinct in the wild!
http://www.acaforum.com/aca_cares.html

Many of you have expressed deep, passionate feelings towards conservation rather than indiscriminate killing of fish. I have arranged for the next 50 fish to be taken to Piranha realm to be grown out and displayed in a 4,000g public aquarium.

I can not express enough that actions are louder than words will ever be and I expect to see many of you join the ACA CARES program and make a difference rather than just

on some forum board. Complaining is easy, putting your money where your mouth is much more important.

This thread served a purpose to educate linebreeders that culling may mean 1-2 fish is all you will get from a hundred if your goal is color/finnage.
Hijacking this thread has allowed me to educate everyone about the ACA CARES Program and how everyone can help save a cichlid from extinction!!!
There are not as many fish in the wild as you may think!!! There are less and less each day because of foreign food fish predating upon natural stocks and because of pollution and human influences!

Please take action if you are serious about saving life!
Rich

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

here is a copy of the post with the list of cichlids in question.
LMK, if any of you keep these fish...

"ACA C.A.R.E.S.
CONSERVATION PRIORITY
SPECIES AT RISK LIST

www.cichlid.org

Claudia Dickinson
ACA C.A.R.E.S. Preservation Program Coordinator
Claudia@CARESPreservation.com

Technical Editor of Freshwater Fishes Dr. Paul V. Loiselle
Conservation Priority List Coordinator Alexander Priest

CARES Conservation Priority List Regional Coordinators

Madagascar Dr. Paul V. Loiselle
Central America Juan Miguel Artigas Azas
Lake Victoria Region Greg Steeves

Due to the detailed issues involved in accumulating and sustaining this list, such as constant additions of species, and revisions in nomenclature and classification of risk, it is a perpetual work in progress. Please refer to the most current revisions which will be made readily available to you. Together, let’s bring a positive future for these fish, and reverse the growth of this list!

A CARES note: As responsible aquarists it is essential that you familiarize yourself with foreign and US wildlife laws. The C.A.R.E.S. Preservation Program recognizes only those fishes that are within the bounds of all laws, both foreign and domestic. Species that are not available to hobbyists for regulatory reasons are not included on this list. Working together, CARES thanks you!

Current as of 2∙16∙08

ID Species Common Name Classification Authority
C Allochromis welcommei CR (1)
C Amphilophus bussingi EN, CP (3)
C Amphilophus lyonsi CR, CP (3)
C Amphilophus rhytisma EN, CP (3)
C Archocentrus altoflavus VU, CP (3)
C Archocentrus myrnae topaz cichlid EN, CP (3)
C Archocentrus nanoluteus VU, CP (3)
C Archocentrus septemfasciatus AR, CP (3)
C Archocentrus spinosissimus AR, CP (3)
C Astatotilapia aeneocolor (2/08) VU (1)
C Astatotilapia barbarae EN (1)
C Astatotilapia brownae EN (1)
C Astatotilapia desfontainii (2/08) EN (1)
C Astatotilapia flaviijosephi VU
C Astatotilapia latifasciata zebra obliquidens CR/AR (1)(3)
C Astatotilapia piceata EN (1)
C Astatotilapia sp. ‘dwarf bigeye scraper’ CR (1)
C Astatotilapia sp. ‘shovelmouth’ EN (1)
C Astatotilapia velifer VU (1)
C Chetia brevis orange-fringed largemouth VU (1)
C Cichlasoma istlanum AR (3)
C Copadichromis atripinnis VU (1)
C Enterochromis erythromaculatus (2/08) EN (1)
C Eretmodus cyanostictus Tanganyika clown NT (1)
C Haplochromis acidens VU (1)
C Haplochromis annectidens CR (1)
C Haplochromis cyaneus EN (1)
C Haplochromis flavus EN (1)
C Haplochromis guiarti CR (1)
C Haplochromis heusinkveldi CR (1)
C Haplochromis howesi CR (1)
C Haplochromis katavi katavi mouthbrooder VU (1)
C Haplochromis lividus EW (1)
C Haplochromis obliquidens EN (1)
C Haplochromis sp. ‘ruby’ (2/08) CR/AR (1)(3)
C Harpagochromis cavifrons (2/08) CR (1)
C Hemichromis cristatus forest jewel cichlid AR (3)
C Herichthys bartoni Barton's cichlid VU/AR (1)(3)
C Herichthys minckleyi VU (1)
C Hericythys steindachneri VU (1)
C Herichthys sp. ‘Cazones’ (2/08) VU (6)
C Hoplotilapia retrodens EW/CD (1)
C Katrias katria katria AR (1)(3)(4)
C Konia dikume dikume VU (1)
C Konia eisentrauti konye VU (1)
C Labrochromis ishmaeli EW/CD (1)
C Lethrinops macracanthus EN (1)
C Lethrinops macrophthalmus VU (1)
C Lethrinops micrentodon EN (1)
C Lethrinops microdon EN (1)
C Lethrinops oculatus VU (1)
C Lethrinops stridae EN (1)
C Lipochromis cryptodon (2/08) EN (1)
C Lithochromis rubripinnis CR (1)
C Lithochromis rufus CR (1)
C Lithochromis xanthopteryx CR (1)
C Macropleurodus bicolor CR (1)
C Mbipia lutea EN (1)
C Myaka myaka myaka, black clown VU (1)(3)
C Neochromis gigas VU (1)
C Neochromis greenwoodi VU (1)
C Neochromis simotes CR (1)
C Oreochromis alcalicus EN (1)
C Oreochromis amphimelas EN (1)
C Oreochromis chungruruensis CR (1)
C Oreochromis hunteri Lake Chala tilapia CR (1)
C Oreochromis jipe jipe tilapia CR (1)
C Oreochromis karomo karomo CR (1)
C Oreochromis karongae EN (1)
C Oreochromis lidole EN (1)
C Oreochromis pangani CR (1)
C Oreochromis rukwaensis Lake Rukwa tilapia EN (2/08) (1) (3)
C Oreochromis squamipinnis EN (1)
C Oreochromis variabilis VU (1) (3)
C Paralabidochromis beadlei CR (1)
C Paralabidochromis chilotes (2/08) VU (1)
C Paralabidochromis chromogynos CR (2/08) (1)
C Paralabidochromis crassilabris VU (1)
C Paralabidochromis labiatus (2/08) NT (1)
C Paralabidochromis victoriae CR (1)
C Paratilapia sp. ‘Andapa’ Andapa large spot Paratilapia EN (4)(3)
C Paratilapia sp. ‘Betsihoka’ Betsiboka small spot Paratilapia EN (4)
C Paratilapia polleni Marakely VU (1)(3)(4)
C Paratilapia sp. ‘Betsileo Highlands’ Flamanga EN (4)
C Paratilapia sp. ‘Southwest’ CR (4)(3)
C Paratilapia typus Mananara large spot Paratilapia VU (1)(3)
C Paratilapia sp. ‘East Coast small spot’ fony VU (1)(3)
C Paratilapia sp. nov. ‘Vevembe’ CR (1)
C Paretroplus damii damba, Filaopisaka VU (4)/(3)
C Paretroplus sp. ‘Dridrimena’ Dridrimena VU (4)(3)
C Paretroplus maromandia VU (4)(3)
C Paretroplus cf. kieneri ‘Sofia drainage’ EN (4)
C Paretroplus kieneri Kotsovato VU (1)(4)(3)
C Paretroplus dambabe kotso EN (1)(3)(4)
C Paretroplus maculatus damba Mipentina, spotted damba CR (1)/(4)
C Paretroplus menarambo Pinstripe Damba CR/CD (1)(3)(4)
C Paretroplus nourissati lamena EN (1)(4)(3)
C Paretroplus tsimoly Tsimoly VU (4)(3)
C Paretroplus sp. nov. ‘giant lamena’ lamenaba, Tsimolybe VU (1)(3)(4)
C Paretroplus sp. ‘Lake Amparihinandrina’ CR (4)
C Paretroplus polyactis masoavotoaka AR (1)(4)(3)
C Paretroplus sp. nov. ‘Ventitry’ Ventitry VU (1)(3)
C Platytaeniodus degeni EW (1)
C Prognathochromis argenteus (2/08) CR (1)
C Prognathochromis bayoni (2/08) CR (1)
C Prognathochromis perrieri EW/CD (1)(3)
C Psammochromis aelocephalus (2/08) VU (1)
C Ptychochromis grandidieri saroy AR (4)(3)
C Ptychochromis inornatus EN (1)(4)
C Ptychochromis oligacanthus tsipoy AR (4)(3)
C Ptychochromis loisellei garaka VU (4)(3)
C Ptychochromis insolitus joba mena CR (3)(4)
C Ptychochromis curvidens green garaka VU (4)
C Ptychochromis makira DD (1)(3)
C Ptychochromis sp. ‘Mananara’ AR (4)(3)
C Ptychochromis sp. ‘Tarantsy’ saro AR (4)(3)
C Pundamilia igneopinnis black and orange nyereri EN (1)
C Pundamilia macrocephala EN (1)
C Pundamilia nyererei NT (1)
C Pungu maclareni pungu VU (1)
C Ptychochromoides betsileanus fiapotsy CR (1)(4)
C Ptychochromoides vondrozo CR (1)(4)(3)
C Pyxichromis orthostoma EN/CD (1)
C Sarotherodon caroli VU (1)(3)
C Sarotherodon linnellii VU (1)(3)
C Sarotherodon lohbergeri VU (1)(3)
C Sarotherodon steinbachi VU (1)(3)
C Stomatepia mariae VU (1)(3)
C Stomatepia mongo VU (1)(3)
C Stomatepia pindu VU (1)(3)
C Thorichthys callolepis (2/08) VU (6)
C Tilapia ‘jewel’ VU (1)
C Tilapia ‘little black’ VU (1)
C Tilapia ‘yellow-green’ VU (1)
C Tilapia bakossiorum VU (1)
C Tilapia bemini VU (1)
C Tilapia bythobathes VU (1)
C Tilapia deckerti VU (1)
C Tilapia flava VU (1)
C Tilapia guinasana otjikoto tilapia NT (1)(3)
C Tilapia gutturosa VU (1)
C Tilapia imbriferna VU (1)
C Tilapia kottae VU (1)
C Tilapia snyderae VU (1)
C Tilapia spongotroktis VU (1)
C Tilapia thysi VU (1)
C Tristramella sacra CR (1)
C Xystichromis ‘Kyoga flameback’ CR (1)
C Xystichromis nuchisquamulatus EN (1)
C Xystichromis phytophagus NT (1)(3)
C Xystichromis sp. ‘Nawampasa red’ AR (3)
C Yssichromis laprogramma (2/08) VU (1)

Classification Abbreviations
AR = At Risk in Nature: (Dr. Paul V. Loiselle)
CD = Conservation Dependent: (i.e., the species is part of a conservation program, which, if ended, would
result in the fish being reclassified as “Threatened” within 5 years.)
CP = Conservation Priority: Species suitable for Breeder Award Programs. (Dr. Paul V. Loiselle)
CR = Critically Endangered: A species facing an extremely high risk of extinction in the wild in the
immediate future (same as “EE” used by de Rham, & Nourissat)
EN = Endangered: Species facing a very high risk of extinction in the wild in the near future. (Includes
species on the ALA list (2) shown as “Threatened.”)
EW = Extinct in the Wild: Known only to survive in cultivation, in captivity or as a naturalized population
(or populations) well outside the past range.
EX = Extinct: There is no reasonable doubt that the last individual has died.
NT = Near Threatened: Species which are close to qualifying for classification to Vulnerable.
VU = Vulnerable: A species facing a high risk of extinction in the wild in the medium term future.

Authority
(1) International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (“IUCN”)
Red List: http://www.redlist.org/
(2) Goodeid Status by Dr. John Lyons as of January 2006
http://livebearers.org/modules.php?name=Co...page&pid=11
(3) Dr. Paul V. Loiselle
(4) de Rham, Patrick & Nourissat, Jean-Claude “The Endemic Cichlids of Madagascar,” Association France Cichlid
(5) CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora)
(6) Juan Miguel Artigas Azas

Refer to this list to see if a species you are keeping is conservation priority at risk, along with the current status of that species. Enter the species that you are currently maintaining on the ACA C.A.R.E.S. Preservation Program Registration Sheet along with where or from whom your specimens were obtained, and the approximate date that they were obtained. You may also use this list to search for a species that you are interested in working with in the future.
For those who would like to find out the possibilities of obtaining a species listed on the ACA C.A.R.E.S. Conservation Priority Species at Risk List, please contact Claudia at Claudia@CARESPreservation.com. If you would like assistance, or are in need of equipment to set up a tank for housing a species at risk, please do not hesitate to ask!

Thank you for your invaluable contribution towards preserving our fish for generations to come!!!

***************************

The C.A.R.E.S. Preservation Program is about our fish, and it is about people.

We are one team, working together. Please, clear a tank ~ save a fish!
Because of you, we are making a difference!

Claudia

Claudia Dickinson
ACA CARES Preservation Program Coordinator
Claudia@CARESPresevation.com
www.cichlid.org
www.acaforum.com

Together, we can and we are making a difference!


--------------------

Ronald Nielson, ron@fishpost.com
ACAForum Committee Chair and Admin"

If you are indeed keeping these fish you already are an active conservationist!
Please LMK, so I can talk to you about registering in this program.
Thanks Rich

 

[Mr.Firemouth]

WOW! :devil:
I can not believe that in a 48 hour period this thread had 50+ replies over killing some fish I bred, but the minute I tell all of you about Conservation and how EACH of you can help the thread goes dead and you all shut up! 48 hours after my post on how you can all help and no replies! NADA! Not one!

Everyone who cried poor fish and has nothing to offer in the way of helping to get involved in real conservation should be ashamed! If your not willing to act and all you want to do is flame at some one, then you should definitely keep your action-less opinions to yourselves and just worry about your own fish tanks!

I am disgusted with the way this thread turned out!
:angryfire: