Cycling my new tank with Dr. Tim's

[GoldLenny]

I've successfully used Prime with Biospira with no detectable effect on the colonizing bacteria. Both products worked as advertised, so it probably would be safe to say that Dr Tim's would not be effected by proper dosing of Prime either.

If you didn't read the long archived thread in the link I posted earlier, here's one reply from Marineland about Prime and BioSpira which is self explanatory. It seems like the beginning of the first paragraph did not get pasted properly in the old post. I presume it starts off saying something like 'The ammonia treated by Prime...'

Subject: RE: Tech help, Bio Spira
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:14:44 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products"
To:

is not harmful to fish, but the bacteria can not process it either. By taking away its food source (ammonia) the bacteria may not perform as expected. If Bio-Spira is being used in a new set up an ammonia binder is no longer necessary as the bacteria will immediately go to work to consume any available ammonia and nitrites present. I also feel that I should mention that certain tests kits will yield a false positive if ammonium is present in the system. I believe it is the Nessler method that will read ammonium as ammonia. This gives the illusion that ammonia is present in the system when it really is Bio-Spira is a bacteria additive that has always existed in established aquariums. We have not engineered or produced a type new bacteria, rather through scientific research we have been able to identify the correct ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. We currently hold patents and patents pending on these strains of bacteria. No other bacterial additive on the market will perform like Bio-Spira does simply because they are not using the correct types of bacteria. The reality is that the other stuff on the market may help to encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria but are not the real oxidizers (http://www.marineland.com/science/reports/15amoxbact.asp). The two types of bacteria contained in Bio-Spira have been around for ages and are very hardy and hard to mishandle. Aside from freezing the bacteria the only other ways to really kill it would be to let it dry up, or to place it in unstable water conditions.

Of course our water conditioners will work best with Bio-Spira. We have tested and designed our chemicals to compliment our bacteria. Most other water conditioners will work fine too. Please keep in mind that there are quite a few water conditioners on the market and we simply have not tested them all. The problem with products such as Amquel is that it contains an ammonia binder. An ammonia binder will cause a chemical reaction which alters ammonia and changes it into ammonium. Ammonium in an altered form, ammonium.

It is okay to use a product such as Prime or Amquel to initially treat the water. It will bind any ammonia in the water. Once fish are added they will produce more ammonia in their waste and allow the Bio-Spira to go to work. As stated on the package we recommend adding the bacteria at the same time the fish are added. If done properly the tank should be set up, filled with treated or filtered water and left to run for 24 hours. This will allow the chemical water conditioners to do their job and will also let the water temperature stabilize.

I have heard some reports that people continue to add Prime, Amquel or similar water conditioners for several days or weeks after setting up a new tank to keep ammonia at a "safe" level or as a preventive to promote "healthy fish". This is completely unnecessary when using Bio-Spira and can create an unstable environment for the fish and for the bacteria. I understand that an overdose of said water conditioners may cause a rapid drop in pH. As we all know this might shock everything in the system. I recommend following the directions listed on the products you choose to use. Don't just squirt a bunch of water conditioner in the tank. If its 5 drops for 10 gallons, be sure to measure 5 drops.

Speaking from my personal experience, I have had the opportunity to use Bio-Spira on several occasions. I have found that a tank will generally complete its "cycle" in about 3-5 days. During the first few days the ammonia and nitrites levels may spike slightly but will stay within a safe range for the fish. I have never seen these levels rise above .5ppm but I have had some customers report levels as high as 2.0 (still within a high/safe range). Likewise I have had some customers report that Bio-Spira has completely cycled their tank within 24 hours. I have not experienced such fast results but have always been satisfied with the products performance. Keep in mind that variables such as tank size, water chemistry, stocking density, amount and frequency that the tank is fed and so on; all play into the speed at which a tank will cycle with or without Bio-Spira. I feel that it is not so much an issue of what one can or can't use, rather it is most important to follow the directions. We have tried to simplify the process into 4 easy steps with our product line. Bio-Safe, Bio-Spira, Bio-Coat and Bio-Blend. Please let me know if you have any further Q's

 

[DocTim]

It is highly doubtful there are still nitrifying cells in the water column. A key difference between my One and Only and the other bacterial mixtures out there, including SafeStart/BioSpira, is that I grow the bacteria on a small particle. Among other things this causes the bacteria to sink quickly into the substrate/filter and also allows the filter to more easily trap the bacteria laden particles. So you’re safe to do water changes just don’t distrub the gravel for awhile.

I am not sure you need to change water due to ammonia or nitrite because there doesn't seem to be any. The simplest reason there is a lot of nitrate is because all the ammonia/nitrite was converted to nitrate. That what these guys do!

As for Prime – used to treat you tap water it fine. Where problems start is when you add Prime everyday during cycling to ‘take care of’ the ammonia. I know SeaChem says it is not harmful but I have run into too many cases to know that's wrong plus I tested the toxicity of the chemical they used years ago on nitrifying bacteria.

So I have a question – if the SeaChem ammonia alert only measures the toxic ammonia (NH3) and Prime makes the toxic ammonia into something else or adds something to it so it’s no longer toxic (which must mean it is also no longer just NH3) how do you get a reading on the ammonia alert?

 

[GoldLenny]

From the old email reply from Marineland (above), they said that the Prime will make the intial treatment of the tank (if it had chloramine) into a non-toxic form of ammonia but then the added fish would start creating their own ammonia and as long as folks don't overdose the Prime or use it daily, then that new ammonia created by the fish would show up on the card... right?

Of course, if daily doses of Prime were added, then I agree, why is the Seachem Ammonia Alert card showing the toxic form of ammonia. Maybe the OP can replicate this test in another test tank.

 

[Jannika]

I normally use Prime as a dechlor added to new water only. From what I understand, the ammonia binding properties are good for maybe 24 hours. It wasn't until day 3 that NH3 started alerting on the card, so at that time I did the water change and dosed the entire tank at 3 drops per gallon. I haven't added anything since, and won't change any more water unless absolutely necessary.

Today it's still in the safe zone, but bears watching. The difference in the yellow to green can be subtle and difficult to read.

I want to add too that although there definitely was ammonia in the tank, those red gills in the picture actually may be part of the fish's natural coloring. I've since seen a few pictures on the net of similar bettas and they also had deep red coloring in that area. I didn't notice it so much at first, but maybe an experienced Betta keeper can better interpret the pic. The fish in question is doing fine, and they're all active and eating.

Lenny, I did read most of that thread, thank you for the link. It seemed to be a lot of conflicting information, with the upshot being unclear. About the fins on the crowntail, they were intact although it wasn't apparent, but I don't discount aggression.

The blue crowntail on the left appears to be dominant, so I've separated them temporarily until I get one or two more, which should help.

More tests from today, Day 6

The nitrates are now at 20 I believe, although it's hard to tell from that card! lol I'm hoping that nitrites peaked and dropped so quickly that I missed it. I've known that to happen, but will keep testing and post results. Thanks all!

 

[GoldLenny]

Since your nitrates are climbing, you have to presume that the nitrites are being converted... that's the only way you would see climbing nitrates unless you were dosing them, which you're not.

When you did the PWC and dosed the tank with Prime at 3 drops per gallon.. was that for the entire tank or just 3 drops per gallon for the replaced water?

What is the standard dose of Prime (drops per gallon)? In your starting post, you said you used 2 drops per gallon, presumably for the entire tank.

 

[GoldLenny]

BTW... considering you started this thread on 9/7 and it's 9/12 now, your tank is fully cycling in less than 5 days... and probably could have happened in less time but we may never know if that PWC and addition of Prime caused a delay or not.

 

[Jannika]

When you did the PWC and dosed the tank with Prime at 3 drops per gallon.. was that for the entire tank or just 3 drops per gallon for the replaced water?

60 drops was to detox the entire tank. The standard dose as dechlor is 2 drops per gallon, so it was a little conservative. They say you up can dose 5X the standard in case of emergency, but it didn't seem necessary.

 

[Jannika]

Since your nitrates are climbing, you have to presume that the nitrites are being converted... that's the only way you would see climbing nitrates unless you were dosing them, which you're not.

The only other thing I added was a weak 1/4" dose of Ken's Pro-Plant 1-0-0, for the "aqua ferns", but that was on the first day and none since. I don't think that would be enough to raise the nitrate that much, so hopefully you're right and the tank is cycled!

 

[GoldLenny]

60 drops was to detox the entire tank. The standard dose as dechlor is 2 drops per gallon, so it was a little conservative. They say you up can dose 5X the standard in case of emergency, but it didn't seem necessary.

Technically, you used 60 drops, instead of 20 drops to treat 10G of water since the 10G left in the tank during the PWC didn't need treating. I know Seachem says you can dose up to 5X but that other thread and the long quoted email from Marineland (in this thread) says that any overdosing of Prime will adversely affect the abilities of nitrifying bacteria like BioSpira and presumably Dr. Tim's One And Only.

Prime does alter the ammonia and makes it less or non-toxic (for fish) but as you already stated, this only lasts for around 24 hours and at that point the ammonia then becomes more readily available for nitrifying bacteria... at least that's how I understand things from all I've read.

I'm sure Dr. Tim doesn't want to get into a peeing contest (or major legal battle) with SeaChem, since he's a much smaller company, but Marineland obviously did not have a problem explaining the problems related to products like Prime and Amquel as it related to how they adversely affected BioSpira when the products were overdosed or used daily and put it in writing and as far as I know, Seachem never sued them over their statements. They can sue me if they want! It'll cost them more in legal fees than they'll ever get out of me... if they can even prove I'm intentionally and factually incorrect in my reporting.

 

[Jannika]

Technically, you used 60 drops, instead of 20 drops to treat 10G of water since the 10G left in the tank during the PWC didn't need treating.

It didn't need to be treated for chloramine, but for free ammonia. At 8.3 pH, even a small amount is toxic for my fish.