dear water company...
- Thread starter inkyjenn
- Start date
Indeed. although I said "correct", that was before a strict distinction between "having an effect" and the concept of "pH shock" was drawn. I actually pointed out that it does have an effect. The point is that the effect is tiny, not life-threatening, and nothing like it is often reported. 'pH shock', the idea that fish can die just because the pH has changed a few tenths of points, is a complete myth.
For the record, like all animals, fish need to maintain a particular blood pH. They do this by regulating the flow of H+ ions in and out of their tissues. If the surrounding pH changes, then this balance will also be altered. It's not, therefore, unreasonable to assume that pH changes affect fish. As, indeed, they do.
However, many people have found (especially since the advent of CO2 injection which lowers pH without touching TDS) that be that as it may, freshwater fish can cope with big changes without issue. Research on the topic has found that fish respond quickly to changes in H+ balance (as opposed to the osmotic balance which seems to take rather longer) and are not damaged by what many would consider considerable changes. They have to be, because natural waters can change in consistency very quickly, especially if they are full of aquatic plants.
Below around 4.5 sodium uptake is inhibited (although there's a relationship here with calcium), I'm not quite sure what the issues are above around 9; might simply be too caustic.
Blueiz seems to be continuing a discussion on another thread; this thread isn't about acclimation, and no-one has suggested not acclimating fish. I did say on that thread that:
1) pH differences within around 2 points do not in and of themselves need acclimating for;
2) temperature differences do
3) TDS differences do, but you can't do this simply over a few hours by "drip acclimation"; it can take days.
But that's not what we're talking about here, which is what killed the fish in the OP; someone suggested it could be a pH change, I pointed out that normal range pH changes don't kill fish, which is true.
For the record, like all animals, fish need to maintain a particular blood pH. They do this by regulating the flow of H+ ions in and out of their tissues. If the surrounding pH changes, then this balance will also be altered. It's not, therefore, unreasonable to assume that pH changes affect fish. As, indeed, they do.
However, many people have found (especially since the advent of CO2 injection which lowers pH without touching TDS) that be that as it may, freshwater fish can cope with big changes without issue. Research on the topic has found that fish respond quickly to changes in H+ balance (as opposed to the osmotic balance which seems to take rather longer) and are not damaged by what many would consider considerable changes. They have to be, because natural waters can change in consistency very quickly, especially if they are full of aquatic plants.
Below around 4.5 sodium uptake is inhibited (although there's a relationship here with calcium), I'm not quite sure what the issues are above around 9; might simply be too caustic.
Blueiz seems to be continuing a discussion on another thread; this thread isn't about acclimation, and no-one has suggested not acclimating fish. I did say on that thread that:
1) pH differences within around 2 points do not in and of themselves need acclimating for;
2) temperature differences do
3) TDS differences do, but you can't do this simply over a few hours by "drip acclimation"; it can take days.
But that's not what we're talking about here, which is what killed the fish in the OP; someone suggested it could be a pH change, I pointed out that normal range pH changes don't kill fish, which is true.
Off-topic:
Read the last two posts on page 3.
I did.
They are both discussing "pH shock" being a myth. Not pH in general or long term effects of pH.Originally Posted by H3D
He said "pH shock" is a myth. He didn't say pH does not have any effect on fish.
Ahhh..I was posting to his first statement..quoted here...
If the water company doesn't have an explanation you might ask the LFS if they are having water problems. And you could even check your neighbor's water. Maybe your pipes are leaching something?
if by 'myth' you mean a few 10ths of a point, then yes, that is nonsense. most fish are not the senstive, even though the pH scale is a logarithmic scale.
but if you have a tank with a pH of say 6.0 and do a 50% water change with hard tap water of a pH of 7.8 or so, your pH will likely go up at almost a full point..which CAN have a detrimental affect, and quickly sometimes..
certain fish, like tinfoil barbs for example, can be quite sensitive to such a change..
now, why did the pH go up? calcium carbonates in the hard water which of course raises your TDS.
and what would be the best way for the average home aquarist to verifiy what happened?
a pH test kit.
its much cheaper than a conductivity meter
it is a simple indicator of what you are saying:
that is the increase in TDS and the accompanying osmotic shock (rapid change in osmotic pressure) that causes all the problems.
its easier to use pH as an indicator of what is happening with the TDS increase/decrease from the change..
PS - where did you hear that a pH change of a few 10ths of a point (say from 7.2 to 7.4) could cause death and destruction. I would argue that for most of our tanks, such a change probably happens every time we do a regular water change...
ok ok. break it up break it up.
i called the water company. they had no explanation. i think im just going to have to bite the bullet and test my water before i add any during all water changes.
on a brighter note, my L239 is acting like his old self again. and i talked to my boss about what happened (he keeps fish too) and he offered me the ro system he has lying around his house. no new dead fish when i got home from work.
i called the water company. they had no explanation. i think im just going to have to bite the bullet and test my water before i add any during all water changes.
on a brighter note, my L239 is acting like his old self again. and i talked to my boss about what happened (he keeps fish too) and he offered me the ro system he has lying around his house. no new dead fish when i got home from work.
