reaction to nociceptive stimuli in vertebrates are controlled both by the brain stem and spinal cord.
do fish feel pain
- Thread starter Dragon_Lord_Tia
- Start date
I think it's only fair that if you are going to use advanced biology terms that you post the link to the paper you are quoting.
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
Very informative. I recommend anyone interested on this subject read it through.
slipnottin: Quoted was a bad word, I meant that you are making the exact same case as the article and I assumed that you had read it. It is very clear that you understood the article and are not merely cut and pasting. I was suggesting that you define or post a link to the definition of nociceptive as it is a purely scientific term (and an important term for this thread).
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
Very informative. I recommend anyone interested on this subject read it through.
slipnottin: Quoted was a bad word, I meant that you are making the exact same case as the article and I assumed that you had read it. It is very clear that you understood the article and are not merely cut and pasting. I was suggesting that you define or post a link to the definition of nociceptive as it is a purely scientific term (and an important term for this thread).
Last edited:
at lest we all agree that fish don't have emotional pain. can you imagine if your fish got depressed becuase you forgot to feed it!!!!
i would have to say fish feel pain emotionaly for example
i had 6 discus in a tank down at the shop and miss grant my former teacher came in and braught 2 dragon discus and a blue discus which left 3 ,2 blue and 1 dragon and for about 2 weeks that dragon discus sat on the bottom for the tank only coming up to eat once a day instead of 3.till miss grant came back in and got that last dragon discus and she invited me and a few of my old class mates over for a reunion sort of thing and what did i see
THE 3rd DRAGON DISCUS WITH THE OTHER 2 SWIMING AROUND HAPPY AS COULD BE now you can say hile that fish was on his own with the 2 other discus he wasnt feeling the "emotional" side of pain.
plus your saying slipnottin if a molly was half eaten by a oscar or a piranha it wouldnt feel pain thats just stupid
the molly was just selected of the top of my head
i had 6 discus in a tank down at the shop and miss grant my former teacher came in and braught 2 dragon discus and a blue discus which left 3 ,2 blue and 1 dragon and for about 2 weeks that dragon discus sat on the bottom for the tank only coming up to eat once a day instead of 3.till miss grant came back in and got that last dragon discus and she invited me and a few of my old class mates over for a reunion sort of thing and what did i see
THE 3rd DRAGON DISCUS WITH THE OTHER 2 SWIMING AROUND HAPPY AS COULD BE now you can say hile that fish was on his own with the 2 other discus he wasnt feeling the "emotional" side of pain.
plus your saying slipnottin if a molly was half eaten by a oscar or a piranha it wouldnt feel pain thats just stupid
the molly was just selected of the top of my head
The spinal cord is responsible for the body's quick withdrawal of a limb that's being seriously injured. The message that the limb is being injured is also being sent to the brain, but the spinal cord is what sends the instantaneous message that you must immediately withdraw your hand from that flame.
"Messages about severe pain, however, especially pain that’s linked to an immediate danger, get passed by the “switch” directly to the brain by the fastest possible route. Meanwhile, other nerve cells in the spinal cord also react to this emergency message by triggering other parts of the nervous systems into action, such as the motor nerves. For example: if a person accidentally sticks their finger into a flame, the pain signal would be sent through the switch directly to that person’s brain--plus their motor nerves would also signal their muscles to snatch your finger away from the harmful fire."
http://www.pain-research.org/mechanics.html
"You might be sewing on a button when suddenly you're aware that you've been stabbed by the needle. You quickly pull your hand away. The body reacts to situations like that by reflex.
Normally a nerve impulse first goes to the brain, f.ex. if you have to go to the bathroom. The brain analyzes the impulse and decides what should be done. Reflexes react differently. They don't activate the thinking part of the brain. The nerve impulse, in this case pain from the needle, goes straight to the spinal cord. The spinal cord transfers the impulse directly to the nerve that gives the arm muscle a message to pull the hand away from the needle."
http://www.experimentarium.dk/uk/naturvidenskab_og_teknik/artikler/artikel.176.html
"A pain in the foot sends messages to the spinal cord which are relayed to stimulate the flexor muscles which pull the limb toward the body and to inhibit the extensor muscles which take the limb away. Result: a reflex action to pull away from the cause of pain. "
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/fitzgerald/
"If an able-bodied person touches a hot stove, the pain causes the muscles to jerk the hand away. This action is caused by a spinal cord reflex. "
http://www.hmc.psu.edu/sciweb/anat/anat4.htm
Anyway, that's besides the point. The question asked was, do fish feel pain? I believe they do.
As far as euthenasia is concerned, I will try my best to treat whatever the problem is, but if I can't, I try to make sure my pets have as painless a death as I can manage.
This helps me sleep better at night, regardless of whether they feel pain or not.
"Messages about severe pain, however, especially pain that’s linked to an immediate danger, get passed by the “switch” directly to the brain by the fastest possible route. Meanwhile, other nerve cells in the spinal cord also react to this emergency message by triggering other parts of the nervous systems into action, such as the motor nerves. For example: if a person accidentally sticks their finger into a flame, the pain signal would be sent through the switch directly to that person’s brain--plus their motor nerves would also signal their muscles to snatch your finger away from the harmful fire."
http://www.pain-research.org/mechanics.html
"You might be sewing on a button when suddenly you're aware that you've been stabbed by the needle. You quickly pull your hand away. The body reacts to situations like that by reflex.
Normally a nerve impulse first goes to the brain, f.ex. if you have to go to the bathroom. The brain analyzes the impulse and decides what should be done. Reflexes react differently. They don't activate the thinking part of the brain. The nerve impulse, in this case pain from the needle, goes straight to the spinal cord. The spinal cord transfers the impulse directly to the nerve that gives the arm muscle a message to pull the hand away from the needle."
http://www.experimentarium.dk/uk/naturvidenskab_og_teknik/artikler/artikel.176.html
"A pain in the foot sends messages to the spinal cord which are relayed to stimulate the flexor muscles which pull the limb toward the body and to inhibit the extensor muscles which take the limb away. Result: a reflex action to pull away from the cause of pain. "
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/fitzgerald/
"If an able-bodied person touches a hot stove, the pain causes the muscles to jerk the hand away. This action is caused by a spinal cord reflex. "
http://www.hmc.psu.edu/sciweb/anat/anat4.htm
Anyway, that's besides the point. The question asked was, do fish feel pain? I believe they do.
As far as euthenasia is concerned, I will try my best to treat whatever the problem is, but if I can't, I try to make sure my pets have as painless a death as I can manage.
This helps me sleep better at night, regardless of whether they feel pain or not.
If fish arent aware, how do they recognize this as pain?
Be careful what you refer to these stimuli as. They are not "pain signals." Injurious stimuli that usually lead to pain experience are called nociceptive stimuli.
Last edited:
What exactly are you indicating? That the fish was emotionally attached to the other fish and wouldnt eat otherwise? What proof of this do you have other than a fish eating when it has tankmates? Seems very possible the fish felt more secure in its envoriment, I dont see why you couldnt believe that this is a simple behavioral reaction it had to what it observed or felt with its senses.
Good to know you actually take a logical approach to this instead of just claming anything you dont like to be "stupid". I really wish schools throughout the world taught more logic classes...
Last edited:
I really find it quite odd that so many have voted in the poll yet very few have posted in the thread to prove their case.
Im assuming this is because they have a prejudice of animals feeling pain based on their own experiences of pain. It seems logical that none of them want to prove their case simply because they believe there is no case for them to prove!
Im assuming this is because they have a prejudice of animals feeling pain based on their own experiences of pain. It seems logical that none of them want to prove their case simply because they believe there is no case for them to prove!
Last edited:
Just because we can't speak to animals to discuss whether they have pain or not, does not mean they are just empty bags of water with nothing more than programmed knee-jerk reactions to stimuli.
Both human beings and fish are (different) types of animals. We (the human animals) know how we react to pain stimuli. Since animals cannot speak to us, we must observe them when they are in situations that would cause us pain and see whether (and how) they react. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that if they have similar reactions and/or feelings to extremely strong stimuli such as losing a limb or being eaten alive by a larger animal, that it is quite likely they are feeling pain.
I think what Dragon_Lord_Tia was trying to say is that if a fish has been half-eaten, but is still alive, that it would be a little silly to say the fish feels nothing at all. (I would have to agree on that point.)
We cannot discuss with infants whether they feel pain or not. Does this mean they cannot feel pain? What about a person who does not speak your language? You cannot communicate with them, so do they not feel pain? What about mentally challenged people such as those with autism? Does this also mean that dolphins and apes, which are generally considered intelligent animals, cannot feel pain since they can't communicate freely with us?
It is my contention that just because an animal cannot say "Damn, that hurts, could you stop that?" Does not mean they do not feel pain. IMO it is better to be on the safe side and treat them as if they feel pain rather than to treat them as if they don't, only to find out later that all those creatures have been tortured needlessly because of my callousness.
It seems many (though not all) biologists have the viewpoint that animals cannot feel pain. This is probably what allieves their conscience when they do horribly gruesome surgical experiments on living creatures, which seems to be the custom when getting advanced degrees in biology. Although I loved animals and desperately wanted to learn more about them, these kinds of experiments are the main reason I chose Chemistry instead of Biology as my focus when getting my Bachelor's degree.
Anyway, it seems slipknottin and I will never agree, so I think I'm going to end my part of this discussion, after I've put in my $0.02 but before it turns into a flame war between people who feel strongly on each side.
Heady out.
Both human beings and fish are (different) types of animals. We (the human animals) know how we react to pain stimuli. Since animals cannot speak to us, we must observe them when they are in situations that would cause us pain and see whether (and how) they react. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that if they have similar reactions and/or feelings to extremely strong stimuli such as losing a limb or being eaten alive by a larger animal, that it is quite likely they are feeling pain.
I think what Dragon_Lord_Tia was trying to say is that if a fish has been half-eaten, but is still alive, that it would be a little silly to say the fish feels nothing at all. (I would have to agree on that point.)
We cannot discuss with infants whether they feel pain or not. Does this mean they cannot feel pain? What about a person who does not speak your language? You cannot communicate with them, so do they not feel pain? What about mentally challenged people such as those with autism? Does this also mean that dolphins and apes, which are generally considered intelligent animals, cannot feel pain since they can't communicate freely with us?
It is my contention that just because an animal cannot say "Damn, that hurts, could you stop that?" Does not mean they do not feel pain. IMO it is better to be on the safe side and treat them as if they feel pain rather than to treat them as if they don't, only to find out later that all those creatures have been tortured needlessly because of my callousness.
It seems many (though not all) biologists have the viewpoint that animals cannot feel pain. This is probably what allieves their conscience when they do horribly gruesome surgical experiments on living creatures, which seems to be the custom when getting advanced degrees in biology. Although I loved animals and desperately wanted to learn more about them, these kinds of experiments are the main reason I chose Chemistry instead of Biology as my focus when getting my Bachelor's degree.
Anyway, it seems slipknottin and I will never agree, so I think I'm going to end my part of this discussion, after I've put in my $0.02 but before it turns into a flame war between people who feel strongly on each side.
Heady out.
