False positive? Ridiculous ammonia readings!

[jpappy789]

How often do you normally vac the gravel?

 

[shloken38]

Not too often. Usually kind of swat at it to push up the debris and scoop it out with the net. Should I stir up the gravel once a week?


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[countryboy]

At this point....if it were I...Buy a large tupperware container treat some water and fill it. Use your filter on it. put your fish in it and remove and clean gravel in main tank.

 

[shloken38]

I was afraid someone would say that. Looks like I'm cleaning that gravel outside the tank.


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[TwoTankAmin]

You don't need to spend your money for an NH3 test kit. There are simple charts which will convert a total ammonia reading (NH3 +NH4) to the number for NH3. It is based on the pH and the temp of the water being tested. Here is a link to a great set of charts. Bear in mind that the poster for these chatrts considers that .03 ppm of NH3 is where it become harmful- The Merck Veterinary Manual puts the level at .05 ppm.

The person who posted:

With a pH of 7.6 there is no NH4 in your tank. Any ammonia there is present as highly toxic ammonia.

was not accurate. However, it is not really important since at 8.0 at 7.6 pH the amount of NH3 should kill everything pretty fast. But consider this- at 8ppm TAN in a tank with a pH of 7.6 and a temp of 78F, NH3 is .147 ppm- that leaves another 7.853 of NH4 to equal the TAN reading of 8.0.

You can find the charts here http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html

Bear in mind that Nessler ammonia tests don't give accurate readings for total ammonia (TAN) when one uses ammonia detoxifier/binders. If you are using an ammonia detoxifier/binder that gives accurate total unbound ammonia readings on a salicylate ammonia test, the numbers on the linked charts are valid. However, an NH3 test kit would work fine. The problem is that longer term exposure to NH4

Effects of pH and temperature on ammonia toxicity

Ammonia in water is either un-ionized ammonia (NH 3) or the ammonium ion (NH4 + ). The techniques used to measure ammonia provide a value that is the sum of both forms. The value is reported as “total ammonia” or simply “ammonia.” (In this publication, “ammonia” refers to the sum of both forms; the specific forms will be referred to as appropriate.) The relative proportion of the two forms present in water is mainly affected by pH. Unionized ammonia is the toxic form and predominates when pH is high. Ammonium ion is relatively non-toxic and predominates when pH
is low. In general, less than 10% of ammonia is in the toxic form when pH is less than 8.0.

From http://cop.extension.org/mediawiki/files/9/97/Managing_Ammonia_in_Fish_Ponds.pdf

 

[SubRosa]

Not too often. Usually kind of swat at it to push up the debris and scoop it out with the net. Should I stir up the gravel once a week?


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Learn proper gravel vacuuming technique. Once the siphon is started, pinch the tubing to stop the flow. Stick the ridgid tube straight sown into the substrate in the front left corner of the tank and let the tubing go. You'll see cruddy water going up the tube. When you see a band of clear water inside the tube, pinch the tubing. Lift the tube straight up and out of the gravel. Move it a bit through the water and then down into the gravel again. You want to slightly overlap each spot, and sytematically move through the whole tank. If you're doing it properly the tank shouldn't cloud up very much at all. You don't want to stir the gravel, since that will just kick the crud up into the water column.

 

[shloken38]

Thanks for the info TwoTank! That post was extremely informative. I've been researching this hobby for 8 months now. By no means would I call myself an expert, but I feel as though I have a good grip on everything. Your post has added even more knowledge. I'm continuing my water changes and "emergency" maintenance, even though I know for sure the readings on the test kit are wrong. My fish are all looking good, no signs of stress or ammonia poisoning. I am making modifications to my filter media to get optimal performance, all being based on various forums and informative web sights. I appreciate everyone's help on this site. You are all great people!


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[excuzzzeme]

Vacuuming on a weekly basis is part of an ideal maintenance routine. This is done in conjunction with the water changes and not separate. It's a good way to remove water and waste at the same time. Doing this on a weekly basis will keep your water in better shape for the fish. Poor maintenance is the cause of many fish illness' and is often directly responsible for many fish deaths. Getting into the habit to vacuum weekly as a part of your maintenance really adds no time as often you wait for the water to drain anyway (when using a siphon). Using just a piece of tubing to siphon will work to vacuum. Simply get it below the substrate and move it along the bottom sliding it each time it clears up. The more often you do it the less you will pull up as time goes on. Don't try to get it all the first week. Getting it too clean robs the food from the ammonia and you may go into a mini-cycle.

Glad to know you are smart enough to know to test your water. Half the people we talk to have no idea what water testing is or why it should be done.

 

[countryboy]

+1 to above. You really need to just pick a day and do your maintenance. A good inside and out cleaning on my 90 gal. takes about an hour. That includes the canister and hob filters, glass and substrate cleaning. with water change.

 

[MaiaDee]

I am late to the thread but I think I know what the problem was with the ammonia testing. Some of you may remember my issues in the beginning. Here is what I found then about using Tetra Safe Start and Prime:

Well, it's been 3.5 days since I added the TSS and my ammonia readings are going UP. This morning we found this on another forum; it is a response to questions regarding Tetra Safe Start from the manufacturer:

"In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live."

So it appears that I have probably killed all the bacteria the TSS added since I've been dosing with Prime everyday since adding TSS. :devil: Looks like I'm back to daily water changes and frantic hoping and praying! Perhaps this is the reason the TSS doesn't work for some people. One would think they could be clear about that on their packaging!

Live and learn, eh? :help:

Also, isin't it possible the fish aren't showing ill effects from the high ammonia due to Prime or whatever water conditioner locking it up?