Fishless Cycling Shortcut
- Thread starter Luca Brazzi
- Start date
I guess what would help folks understand this would be to give some numbers as well to specify how much Nitrobacter needs to be grown to support the expected bioload, and to convert the numbers to something that could be measured with a test kit. For example: After your ammo goes to 0, if you plan to add 3 small fish, and 4 medium, you should wait until your Nitrate reading rises from 0 to X in a single day before adding them. Or something of that nature.
I would add that there is a pretty strong body of evidence (in the form of refereed scientific journal articles) that suggests nitrobacter aren't even the relevant bacteria in the oxidization of ammonia and nitrite, but that Nitrospira are.
Your 'technique' has worked once (and even that is up to debate, as the preceding discussion indicates). Before advocating a new technique or an alteration to a technique, most of us would need to see that technique repeatedly applied. In your case, there have been so many possible influences on the growth of bacterial colonies that it strains credulity to be able to say anyone could actually understand what caused your tank to cycle as it did.
Many of us are quite open to new techniques and approaches, and a lot of new equipment and products get informal 'road tests' here. We know the difference between careful methodical approaches to new techniques and post hoc 'explanataions' that can't rule out competing explanations.
Jim
Your 'technique' has worked once (and even that is up to debate, as the preceding discussion indicates). Before advocating a new technique or an alteration to a technique, most of us would need to see that technique repeatedly applied. In your case, there have been so many possible influences on the growth of bacterial colonies that it strains credulity to be able to say anyone could actually understand what caused your tank to cycle as it did.
Many of us are quite open to new techniques and approaches, and a lot of new equipment and products get informal 'road tests' here. We know the difference between careful methodical approaches to new techniques and post hoc 'explanataions' that can't rule out competing explanations.
Jim
One other thing I'd like to point out that I haven't seen mentioned here yet, is that there are a few fish which are very succeptible to disease/death with nitrite spikes (even minor ones lasting only a day!) as well as other water chemistry changes. What many don't know is that there are several minute changes/fluctuations on bio-colonies, water chemistry, etc taking place for a couple weeks to months in a newly set up aquarium, even when fully cycled the "acceptable" way. For this reason it is suggested that certain fish are added only to "established" aquariums (Cardinal Tetras for example).
I personally (as well as probably most of us) have noticed how even nitrates lower on average in a tank over a period of months with a constant fish supply. Mine used to reach about 20ppm each week before water changes, but now only reach 10ppm. I even waited two weeks this last time to test the results, and it is still at (roughly) 10ppm nitrates. This is what happens to water chemistry over time when a tank "establishes" itself.
I see where there was alot of thought that went into Lucca's cycling idea, and I'm sure many of us have thought of similar bypass methods, but the simple truth is that time is the best method of securing a stable environment for your fish. I'm sure there are many hardy fish which will survive Lucca's method in pretty much any tank, but there are other "sensetive" fish which won't last with that method in ANY tank! If you really want to bypass the cycling process, throw an juvenile Oscar into a 20 to 30 gal tank an go with it. It's not at all the best environment for him and you will have to keep up with water changes, but one of my old roomates used this method (knowing nothing of cycling) and his fish is still living and about 10" long now. Sometimes fish can survive terrible conditions and other times they belly-up at the slightest "smell" to the water.
The gist of what everyone here is saying is that there is a "safer" or better worded, more "conservative" method of cycling your tanks. This forum is for ideas of all kinds and hopefully people can find something that works best for them (and more importantly, their fish!)
I personally (as well as probably most of us) have noticed how even nitrates lower on average in a tank over a period of months with a constant fish supply. Mine used to reach about 20ppm each week before water changes, but now only reach 10ppm. I even waited two weeks this last time to test the results, and it is still at (roughly) 10ppm nitrates. This is what happens to water chemistry over time when a tank "establishes" itself.
I see where there was alot of thought that went into Lucca's cycling idea, and I'm sure many of us have thought of similar bypass methods, but the simple truth is that time is the best method of securing a stable environment for your fish. I'm sure there are many hardy fish which will survive Lucca's method in pretty much any tank, but there are other "sensetive" fish which won't last with that method in ANY tank! If you really want to bypass the cycling process, throw an juvenile Oscar into a 20 to 30 gal tank an go with it. It's not at all the best environment for him and you will have to keep up with water changes, but one of my old roomates used this method (knowing nothing of cycling) and his fish is still living and about 10" long now. Sometimes fish can survive terrible conditions and other times they belly-up at the slightest "smell" to the water.
The gist of what everyone here is saying is that there is a "safer" or better worded, more "conservative" method of cycling your tanks. This forum is for ideas of all kinds and hopefully people can find something that works best for them (and more importantly, their fish!)
Very true Sumpin'fishy about some fish not being able to withstand any Nitrites in the water whatsoever...
So I will need to revise the method somewhat to specify to add your Hardy fish first (Mollies worked for me... I never lost a single Molly).
Or in the case of those who will be adding predatory fish, throw a few small feeders in there for a couple of days, till you are sure things have settled down, THEN... add your Oscar
In short... using this method can save you several weeks of time and get those fish in there! Afterall we are in this hobby to keep Fish, not to play chemist!
Thanks for bringing up that point Sumpin'fishy
Oh yeah... OrionGirl... Thanks for highlighting my comments! I too wanted to emphasize the point I was making... Having you put it out there in nice BOLD letters makes it much easier to read!
Now why didnt I think of that?
So I will need to revise the method somewhat to specify to add your Hardy fish first (Mollies worked for me... I never lost a single Molly).
Or in the case of those who will be adding predatory fish, throw a few small feeders in there for a couple of days, till you are sure things have settled down, THEN... add your Oscar
In short... using this method can save you several weeks of time and get those fish in there! Afterall we are in this hobby to keep Fish, not to play chemist!
Thanks for bringing up that point Sumpin'fishy
Oh yeah... OrionGirl... Thanks for highlighting my comments! I too wanted to emphasize the point I was making... Having you put it out there in nice BOLD letters makes it much easier to read!
Now why didnt I think of that?
LOL Oniongirl - thats classic 
Luca - you need to chill a bit. Hey, I have enjoyed your posts and your many DIY adventures, but I do see the point and concern that many others have raised here. Shoot, if I recall, you started to pre-cycle this filter in your bathtub Your experience with this tank is far from normal.
I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion. perhaps you are on to something, perhaps not. I am sure people skeptically looked upon the inventor of fishless cycling at first - shoot, I know my LFS folks look at me crazily when I tell them I cycle my tanks by pouring in Ammonia and don't use fish. That said, one experience does not make for a solid recommendation. You shouldn't get upset at folks who are basically saying that.
If you want to prove them wrong, and come up with the patented Luca cycling method - do a few more "controlled" tests and post the results daily as you go. You will win over more folks that way than slinging barbs at them 
Luca - you need to chill a bit. Hey, I have enjoyed your posts and your many DIY adventures, but I do see the point and concern that many others have raised here. Shoot, if I recall, you started to pre-cycle this filter in your bathtub
Your experience with this tank is far from normal.I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion. perhaps you are on to something, perhaps not. I am sure people skeptically looked upon the inventor of fishless cycling at first - shoot, I know my LFS folks look at me crazily when I tell them I cycle my tanks by pouring in Ammonia and don't use fish. That said, one experience does not make for a solid recommendation. You shouldn't get upset at folks who are basically saying that.
If you want to prove them wrong, and come up with the patented Luca cycling method
- do a few more "controlled" tests and post the results daily as you go. You will win over more folks that way than slinging barbs at them
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The media sat for several weeks bone dry before I restarted the cycling process so any bacteria I established during the tub cycling (which was working I might add ) would have died. And even if it didnt where the media was cycled is a non issue. Its the water chemistry that matters. The simple fact of this whole thing is that I DID NOT, need to wait till the "traditional" end of the fishless cycling process (0 ammo, 0 nitrites). After my ammo went to 0, I had more than enough Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, or little green men in pink jumpsuits to support my bioload (indicated by my high Nitrate concentration). If there were a thread like this before I started I could have saved myself a bunch of time.
OrionGirl (sigh), its just that this thread is about a particular subject. Read the title. There are folks here who are trying to discuss this topic, however, for some strange reason, you seem to feel the need to interrupt our discussion to inject irrelevant, childish, nonsense. Very poor behavior for someone who is supposed to be a moderator... or whatever you are, very poor. If you dont have something mature and on topic to converse about, please, do us a favor and let the adults talk. Kay? So as to not encourage your poor behavior, I will no longer respond to your tantrums. I wouldnt want to have to report your delightfully annoying off topic, snippy, yet spunky posts to another moderator...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. And oh yeah... small or large... thanks again for re-re-re-emphasizing my point
CICHLIDS ROCK!!!
Luca Brazzi
) would have died. And even if it didnt where the media was cycled is a non issue. Its the water chemistry that matters. The simple fact of this whole thing is that I DID NOT, need to wait till the "traditional" end of the fishless cycling process (0 ammo, 0 nitrites). After my ammo went to 0, I had more than enough Nitrobacter, Nitrospira, or little green men in pink jumpsuits to support my bioload (indicated by my high Nitrate concentration). If there were a thread like this before I started I could have saved myself a bunch of time.OrionGirl (sigh), its just that this thread is about a particular subject. Read the title. There are folks here who are trying to discuss this topic, however, for some strange reason, you seem to feel the need to interrupt our discussion to inject irrelevant, childish, nonsense. Very poor behavior for someone who is supposed to be a moderator... or whatever you are, very poor. If you dont have something mature and on topic to converse about, please, do us a favor and let the adults talk. Kay? So as to not encourage your poor behavior, I will no longer respond to your tantrums. I wouldnt want to have to report your delightfully annoying off topic, snippy, yet spunky posts to another moderator...
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. And oh yeah... small or large... thanks again for re-re-re-emphasizing my point
CICHLIDS ROCK!!!
Luca Brazzi
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This level of rudeness and personal attack should not be tolerated on the board. After multiple repetitions on more than one thread, it seems to be time for administrative action.
