Guppies dropping like flies -_-

[Tay690]

Hello,

During the last 5 days we'll say my guppies have dieing almost daily

I think it's velvet but i'm not 100%

The symptoms are the closest I can find to my situation

One of the female guppies had some of her flesh kind of flaked up and her tail fin was collapsed (like they do when they're in distress or hiding...they kind of crunch up their tail fin and just sit in the corner of the tank)

The next day she seemed to be better but now in the past 5 days there have been about 6 casualties so far

Yesterday night I had to actually euthanize (sp) my first fish ever because this guppy looked so terrible I couldn't bear to watch it anymore...she was absolutely covered in like white silk looking slime on her entire body and had these greenish spots all over her tail fin...her flesh was also flaked up and she was struggling to swim (swimming with her whole body and not her tail)

This guppy was fine 24 hours prior to yesterday...whatever this is it spread fast and violently and I'm worried if I dont treat it quickly...it could end up wiping my whole tank out

In the tank I have my snail population that I use to feed my clowns (which I've refrained from doing since this disease popped up in the guppy tank)

I know malachite green will kill snails...so I need options

1. I buy a new tank and put all the fish from that tank in there to treat the disease (now that I think about it...moving the snails would probably be a lot easier and not so much of a bioload)
2. Some medicine that won't be lethal to snails and will clear this stuff up

I'm still not even sure if I've pinpointed the disease itself...but it's the closest symptom relation I can find on the net

I do have a new 55g that is still in the midst of being setup so that is an option...maybe to move all the snails to that tank for the time being and dose the 15g tank without the snails inside

I need help...whatever it is it's very fast to totally dominate the fish and they don't even look like fish within 24 hours..almost like all their flesh is rotting and flaking up

It kind of looks like velvet with a splash of ich...but the spots are more of a greenish tinge than white (if that makes any sense)

On a side note...the big female guppy that started with this disease was able to shake it off and she's now fine so far as I saw this morning...which was quite surprising to see

As always

Thank you in advance,
Taylor

 

[Cerianthus]

pics would really help..

Make sure that water is not the reason by performing actual test if you have not done it yet.

From descriptive symtoms, I would look into Quick Cure or other meds with same/similar singredients (NEVER USE WITH INVERTS).
A possible needs for ampicillin. Understand what these med can perform but would wait until i can at least view the pics as this could be something totally different from what I am thinking.

Although cant tell for 100% from descriptions, it sound like pretty common symtoms observed in livebearers exposed to fouling water condition in box during transit.
Have seen similar occurence in home rearing tank where i kept more fish per gallon.

DO remember healthy fish can fight off many invaders, well, ususally.
It is weakened fish which are more prone to heavy infestations/infection resulting in high mortality rate in short time.
Unfortunately symptoms dont always appear until days/weeks later from exposures to unfavorable conditions. Thus very critical to provide optimal/ideal condition for specific fish from the beginning, IMO.

 

[mel_20_20]

Did you get a close look at the one that you had to euthanise? When you say her skin was flaked up, does that mean the scales in that area were lifted a bit?

Do you notice if they seem to be breathing rapidly, as if having a hard time? Do the other fish have the white silky looking looking slime?

Can you describe the green spots? Do they look poofy/fluffy, or smooth and encapsulated? If you still have the fish you euthanised could you take some close up photos of it?

 

[Cerianthus]

One more thing.
Before I determine whether to euthanize or not, i would use that fish as trial fish experiemnting with med. I know it sound cruel but if I can learn something new from one suffering fish to benefit more down the road, I would certainly exposed suffering fish to experiment.
Hey, sometimes such expeirments have healed suffering fish to full recovery.

Facts from the books, research data/aarticle is one thing but on hand experience is as important, if not more, in fish keeping w/o proper lab faicilty/apparatus.

btw, how are rest of fish doing?

 

[Tay690]

Ok i went through all the posts

and thank you for your input / info

and HAPPY NEW YEAR MEL!

now back to business

Yes the scales were flaked up and her tail was pretty much completely deteriorated

the green spots weren't poofy ... they were kind of buried under the skin (not rounded and protruding)

the euthanised fish had to get tossed cuz my wife didn't want it in the freezer for days lol so that one is gone

Another guppy died yesterday but didn't have any symptoms like this

I think she died from birth complications (cuz she was perfectly fine then she was belly up the next day...no shredded skin or spots...looked like a normal fish when she passed)

Now the original guppy that had the symptoms and kicked them off seems to be sitting at the bottom of the tank gasping very heavily...no symptoms so far...so skin shredding or spots on her whatsoever but she's clearly in distress

and no all the other fish in the tank look completely healthy and are not gasping for air

There was actually another male guppy that had symptoms yesterday (in and around his eye close to his head)

But he seems fine today...I've been using melafix for the past 4 days and dosing food with garlic guard until I can put my finger on what's going on

I'm going to run out and get a couple of 2x4's to support my 55g so I can start moving the fish around and have a designated QT tank ...hopefully it will all be setup tomorrow evening when I get home from work

This is really upsetting for me...These guppies have always had an amazingly clean tank and I've never had any issue whatsoever in this tank...I can't explain what is going on

The next fish that has these symptoms I will take a photo of and keep him and QT and experiment with the meds recommended

Hopefully it's not too late

Thanks again,
Taylor

 

[Tay690]

Well I know I said I would get a picture of the next symptomatic guppy...but there have been no symptoms

again this morning another guppy died...and it was one of my show males so i'm not very happy

no symptoms...no red markings...no discolouration

I don't get it

Yesterday when I was doing the WC I noticed he seemed a little lethargic but when I put my hand up to the glass he was going nuts with the other guppies (like they usually do when I put my finger up to the glass)

Then this morning I wake up and he's lying on the substrate dead -_-

He doesn't have any velvet symptoms...no inflamation...no red markings on him anywhere...

and I tested the water yesterday

ph 7.0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20
ammonia 0

my tank temp stays constant at 78 (and has been there for the past year with no issues)

I do have a single hornwort plant that floats on the surface of that tank (has also been there for 1 year) to protect the fry etc

I trim the excess when it gets too grizzly

what else

I also have pond snails, MTS and red ramshorn snails

I have a piece of cuttlebone in the tank for the snails to latch on when they need it

I feed the snails spinach every 2 or 3 days

and that's all I can think of

please any suggestions or ideas as ridiculous as they might sound...shoot them over

I'm out of options at this point and something needs to be done sooner than later

Thanks in advance,
Taylor

 

[Cerianthus]

Am i correct to assume these guppies were ones you had for while? And your own juvies?

What is cuttle bone? A natural cuttle fish bone?

How about laying off on spinach for a while? I know Romaine Lettuce, spinach, etc,are supposed to be spray free, pesticide free. But i recall a startling report while back as to what farmers spray. Sometimes I could feel stickiness when washing vegetable under running water. Def not produced by veggies as same home grown veggies never have shown same/similar stickiness.
I am not saying it is or not, but just a thought as I always have steamed for few seconds in order to attempt breaking down any induced chemicals on the veggies to feed tankful of fancy plecos, 50 zebras, 50 gold nuggets, etc, etc.
Would you believe there were times when Zebra pleco would retail as low as $16? What I hear how much ZP can go for nowdays, I should've kept few breeding pairs.

If adults guppies are new from SE Asia (cheap $1.99/$2.99 pair), there were times when whole batches of shipments can wipe out overnight/over few days. Never could pinpoint the exact culpits for such massive loss but found the treatments which eradicated the losses. All depended how well fish shipped and how ealy i caught the possible implications.
I cant say if it is same now or not but best strain/gene pool can still be found among reputable local guppy breeders. Try local fish club/society.
You can learn lot more from some of old timers as i have learned/improvised many natural techniques/ideas from old timers, most of whom are not with us.

Hope your tank settles down soon.

 

[mel_20_20]

I'm so sorry Tay, for your losses. It sure sounds like a parasitic problem. One of our other AC members had something similar and her fish had a filmy slime on them.

She lost all of them, because we didn't diagnose it soon enough. Chilodonella, or Costia come to mind as they both cause an excessive production of slime in response to the parasites.

At the top of the Freshwater Illness and Disease section is a sticky that lists diseases and treatments. Here's some info from that section.

Chilodonella:
Sera Costapur, Sera Omnisan, Malachite Green, Potassium Permanganate, Formalin, Copper Sulfate, salt baths

Costia:
Hydrogen peroxide, Formalin, Copper Sulfate, Acriflavine, Sera Costapur, Sera Ectopur

From the info I've included from Lupins sticky, you can see that there are some treatments that will address both kinds of parasite.

Quick Cure may be a good choice.

It sure does seem like this is a parasitic infestation. Cerianthus, posting in this thread, has had a lot of experience and his suggestions seem sound.

Usually a secondary bacterial infection hits the fish during or right after a parasitic infection, so I think that the use of an antibiotic seems to be a good idea, too.

 

[Tay690]

I thought it was the spinach too honestly...cuz this all started happening maybe 1 week after I started feeding the snails spinach

Another guppy died this morning...it was the big female that kicked off the original problem...when i woke up she was just laying sideways on the substrate gasping for air...i went the washroom and came back out and she was already gone

she has absolutely no symptoms whatsoever also (I think she might have died from old age to be honest...I got her exactly one year ago and she was already fully grown...she didn't grow at all since I've had her but she lived for a whole year)

and to date there was only the one fish with the velvet like symptoms...no other casualties in that fashion

I just want to ask a few questions because trying to narrow down to what it is doesn't seem to be working

so i'm gonna try to find out what it isn't

If the guppies didn't have enough oxygen in the tank would they all be gasping at the surface?

If it was bacterial I would most likely see red blotches of irritated flesh right? kind of like columnaris (sp)?

if it was fungal they would have some nasty fur like growth on them?

other than that the tank has always looked incredible...been exceptionally clean always (thank you snails / loach food) and very vibrant and healthy

and yah sorry to ignore questions...i kind of get pulled off topic in my brain and let it fly

yes cuttlebone is a cuttle fish bone

and I don't think there is any excessive slime buildup on the fish...other than their natural slime coat which so far as i can see is in tact and not eroded

I'm not going to rule out parasite just yet...but all these guppies are extremely full looking...the one that had the symptoms was very skinny when she was euthanised ...but the rest have been very healthy very full guppies (physically)

Thank you...keep shooting the ideas over they're great
Taylor

 

[Cerianthus]

Most likely not Chilo nor Costia as they do display distinct sysmtoms.

At this point without certainty, would just perfrom routine maintenance with new but high quality carbon. No veggies thought. Can use sinking wafers instead for other fish/crawlers.

Another option would be to set up new tank using (70%) water & some gravel from other well established tank + 30% new tap water. If you could have new filter run on other tank for few days, even better. No salt for now.
btw, what kind of salt do you use?
Take random 30-50% of remaining guppies and acclimate into newly set up tank.
If new tank has no loss but guppy tank has continued losses, it gotta be someting in the water.
If both gupply tank and new tank continues have loss, try adding Aq salt first yo new tank(1 level tea/gal). I usually dissolve the salt in dispenser before adding.
Wait few days for developments or no development.
If problem persist, then add Q/C as instructed on the bottle.

One more note: I see that all wants to assist on threads but I feel that more confusion can be created with diverse opinions which sometimes lead to disaters because someone who are going thru difficulties usually losses focus.
For example, I would never recommend to mix two different med unless verified by manufacturers. I believee someone wrote to mix Furan-2 +Kanaplex, I think. Although I have mixed nitrofurazone with kanamycin at specific molecular weight, I would not mix Furan-2 which has multiple active ingredients which can react with Kanaplex to produce inactive chemical or possibly toxic substances. I dont know for sure unless actually run fews experiments. Plus toxicity of med differs from fish to fih.
One should be cautious as to mixing two med, especially by diff mfr.
I dont know for sure if mfr will give you absolutely correct recommendations or not but consulting with biochemisty/pharmaceutical or pharmacology dept of such mfr would assist in great deal with any meds/diseases.
This tasks was diffulty 30 yrs ago but it is so easy to send e-mail to mfr nowdays.
Like I said on numerous occassions, reading materials are important but experiences in recognizing fish diseases are as important, if not more, when facing fish diseases since many same/similar symptoms are shared by many diseases.
Just my thoughts!
Let's see what happens. Keep posting.