Healthy Angelfish with stuff hanging from his fins - keeps going away and coming back

[Cerianthus]

How is angel doing? Complete recovery/eradication?

Vid possible?

 

[sundragon]

Update

Thanks for checking on me

In brief:
I treated with Maracyn Plus - stuff came back - Treated with Pimafix - that stuff smells like menthol - stuff came back, but not as bad...

I kinda gave up on Aquaria Central - no one had responded to the last post so I went online and did a bit of research.

Water Conditions (haven’t really changed):
pH 6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20 (dropped to 10 after algae outbreak was cleaned up)
Temp 79 degrees

What I’ve done:
1. Two treatments for fungus and it came back. LFS looked at photos identified it as fungus offered Pimafix as a solution if Maracyn Plus didn’t do it…
2. I treated a stag horn algae outbreak with a Seachem Excel (2x dose daily for a week) and H2O2 spot treatment (30ml applied with syringe applied to plants right before a water change). The water became cloudy with dead algae, nitrates spiked - I started doing water changes 2x a week - 10 gallons each time (33% of a 30 gallon tank). Algae is gone, water is clean nitrates dropped to 10. I've kept up the water change just to see how it goes.
3. Per your advice, I use warm tap water and I don't let the water sit for more than the time it takes to siphon water out - I use 1ml of Prime for each 3.5 gallon bucket - overkill but just in case as DC loves using Chloramine in the water and I'm not taking chances.
4. Started injection of CO2 to replace DIY CO2 – Algae is gone… Anyone want plants, because mine are growing like weeds… I used to love java fern, now it’s becoming a frikkin weed! I have baby java ferns all over the place.
5. Angel is happy, hungry and acting normal.
6. No other fish have died or gotten sick, and are pigs but are becoming a pain as they prefer blood worms to flake food, haha.
7. I am feeding frozen blood worms in the evening, and flakes in the morning. I have reduced the amount just to make sure I don’t make too many nitrates.
8. I added a three baby angels (gift from a breeder friend) and they are all healthy, no "fungus", look beautiful and perky, eating well.

In doing a bit of research online - found the following:
1. Slime coat can increase and slough off from irritation to water contaminants and other irritants. I used to add aquarium salt, 1tbsp per 5 gallons - I read that this stuff can irritate fish and make them produce more slime coat - I'm slowly reducing the amount of salt to the water as I do water changes (So as not to shock the fish). Lets see if that does anything...
2. Unknown disease - fish may die, life goes on... I doubt this as it's doing well and seems happy, loves bloodworms...
3. It could possibly just be sensitive and produce a lot of slime coat - my friend who breeds angels said his fish did the same when he first got them, but they don't anymore...

Since he/she's healthy otherwise I'm at a loss and I've stopped freaking out as the fish, all of them for that matter, seem to be doing well. I would love to know what this is or how to eradicate it, but the Google oracle and fish forums haven't provided any insight

Please see linked videos of the tank and fish. (I apologize about the format, it's the way I held the phone, you can raise the resolution to 1080P and make it full screen):
1. Close up of the Koi
2. Tank and all the fish

Let me know if you want me to reshoot the videos

 

[mel_20_20]

Sounds like you did everything right. The tank looks lovely and the fish are beautiful. I think the excessive slime coat was the issue, thankfully nothing more serious.

Sorry we didn't help much, but I'm so glad you were able to get the information you needed.

Really nice tank and fish.

 

[sundragon]

Grateful!

Thanks, I apologize - You guys were a lot of help, I reread my post and I came off sounding ungrateful - I am very grateful for the feedback!

I have a friend who's an MD - he says even when you practice medicine with people it's sometimes not clear what's wrong, just a matter of going down the possibilities till you hit the right answer. The forum helped me narrow down the possibilities. And thus far my angel seems happy, and hungry - I just spend a few hours working next to the tank - so relaxing...

If I find out more or if there's a change, I'll update the thread. Maybe someone else can benefit from this... I am always up to learning more...

Sounds like you did everything right. The tank looks lovely and the fish are beautiful. I think the excessive slime coat was the issue, thankfully nothing more serious.

Sorry we didn't help much, but I'm so glad you were able to get the information you needed.

Really nice tank and fish.

 

[Cerianthus]

First of all, the med "Maracyn Plus" has two types of meds: Sulfadimidine & Trimethoprim which are both bacteriostatic but not bactericidal. Upon refreshing my memory by checking my old Merck Manual, they may inhibit certain functions of microbes but it wont kill them.

While viewing your vid, I noticed the edges of anal fin/ pelvic fins/portion of dorsal/perhaps even tail were unusually raggedy although Ive seen similar but as bad as yours in many healthy veil angels.
Those white slimy or wart/blister like things may be symptoms accompanied with fin rot but never ever have I seen such on angels although seen similar on other species of fish.

Check the attached photo which I got while surfing images of veiltail angels. Does symptoms/appearance of the tail remind you of something you are experiencing?
Not saying it is same probelms but darn similar in appearance, imo.
Owner posted pic of angels spawning but did not realize possible problems with tail.


Also check posting titled Blue Acara in same disease topic. Something simple as fin rot unfortunately did a number on this cichlid. Look at the few pics in there and you will see some growth on the affected deteriorating fins/tail. Although OP eventually took the fish to vet, earlier detection and/or treatments may have rendered different outcome.

I am guessing fin rot at this stage where Maracyn Plus did not correct the problems and probably would not have since they are just bacteriostatics.

I would try Maracyn II or OxyTC in Q/T if & when possible before it gets worse which can happen due to many factors sometimes beyond our control including changing H2O conditions/tankmates aggression, etc, etc.

Since Maracy-Plus is in liquid and already in your hand, how about soaking food with couple of drops just prior to feeding. I dont know if this will work but an option you can try before Q/T?

 

[Cerianthus]

Silly me, very Long, Long day!!! Here comes the pic.

Hope all goes well!

 

[sundragon]

First of all, thank you for the thorough answer, and follow up

• The pic looks a lot like what's going on with the angel. I've seen the "raggedy" fins on other angels (not in my tank) without the warts/slime.
• I'll do the soak of Maracyn Plus and start feeding him in the next feeding.
• Just for my own knowledge, Maracyn Plus lists on the front, and the back description "antibacterial", why do they market them this way? I would think they killed bacteria.

Questions:

1. How long do you try feeding the medicated food?
2. I have Furan-2 which Contains Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone. Should I use that as it says it treats Fin & Tail rot? Is Maracyn II or OxyTC better?
3. Should I continue reducing Aquarium salt use (as per above)?
4. I have a Q/T - would it be better to treat the whole tank to kill off the bacteria that causes this or would that disturb the existing beneficial bacteria?
5. Lastly, I use Seachem Purigen to remove organic solids (great stuff) instead of Carbon in the filter. Should I remove that as well if I treat the tank?

First of all, the med "Maracyn Plus" has two types of meds: Sulfadimidine & Trimethoprim which are both bacteriostatic but not bactericidal. Upon refreshing my memory by checking my old Merck Manual, they may inhibit certain functions of microbes but it wont kill them.

While viewing your vid, I noticed the edges of anal fin/ pelvic fins/portion of dorsal/perhaps even tail were unusually raggedy although Ive seen similar but as bad as yours in many healthy veil angels.
Those white slimy or wart/blister like things may be symptoms accompanied with fin rot but never ever have I seen such on angels although seen similar on other species of fish.

Check the attached photo which I got while surfing images of veiltail angels. Does symptoms/appearance of the tail remind you of something you are experiencing?
Not saying it is same probelms but darn similar in appearance, imo.
Owner posted pic of angels spawning but did not realize possible problems with tail.


Also check posting titled Blue Acara in same disease topic. Something simple as fin rot unfortunately did a number on this cichlid. Look at the few pics in there and you will see some growth on the affected deteriorating fins/tail. Although OP eventually took the fish to vet, earlier detection and/or treatments may have rendered different outcome.

I am guessing fin rot at this stage where Maracyn Plus did not correct the problems and probably would not have since they are just bacteriostatics.

I would try Maracyn II or OxyTC in Q/T if & when possible before it gets worse which can happen due to many factors sometimes beyond our control including changing H2O conditions/tankmates aggression, etc, etc.

Since Maracy-Plus is in liquid and already in your hand, how about soaking food with couple of drops just prior to feeding. I dont know if this will work but an option you can try before Q/T?

 

[sundragon]

Just looked at the Blue Acara thread, wow! So sad - The angel's fins aren't nearly that bad, I hope it doesn't get to that stage if it is finrot.

Also check posting titled Blue Acara in same disease topic. Something simple as fin rot unfortunately did a number on this cichlid. Look at the few pics in there and you will see some growth on the affected deteriorating fins/tail. Although OP eventually took the fish to vet, earlier detection and/or treatments may have rendered different outcome.

 

[Cerianthus]

First of all, thank you for the thorough answer, and follow up
Not a problem as I am very curious as to what it/they may be since I never exp such in my decades of angel breeding other than similar protozoan attack!

• The pic looks a lot like what's going on with the angel. I've seen the "raggedy" fins on other angels (not in my tank) without the warts/slime. Your female Koi is still gorgeous one!!
• I'll do the soak of Maracyn Plus and start feeding him in the next feeding. Hoping for the best!
• Just for my own knowledge, Maracyn Plus lists on the front, and the back description "antibacterial", why do they market them this way? I would think they killed bacteria. Answers are too broad to cover here nor am I certified to give such lecture anymore! Search on those two terms and the ingredients themselves. It's your HW for today:

Questions:

1. How long do you try feeding the medicated food? Let's try daily feeding for a week to see if any improvements are observed.
2. I have Furan-2 which Contains Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone. Should I use that as it says it treats Fin & Tail rot? Is Maracyn II or OxyTC better? If memory serves, both Nitro/Furaz are bactericide so use it since already in your hand but MUST in Q/T as it can cause problems with your well established bio-activities in the tank.
3. Should I continue reducing Aquarium salt use (as per above)? I would continue to maintain stable and therapeutic level of NaCl.
4. I have a Q/T - would it be better to treat the whole tank to kill off the bacteria that causes this or would that disturb the existing beneficial bacteria? As you can see, not all are affected as some maybe/are stronger/healthier than others. No different from Homo sapiens.:tropicalfish:
5. Lastly, I use Seachem Purigen to remove organic solids (great stuff) instead of Carbon in the filter. Should I remove that as well if I treat the tank? Most Def!!!

Hope all goes well!

 

[sundragon]

Update

Ok 1 week of medicating the food (soaking flakes and blood worms in Maracyn Plus):

Angel is still feisty, and a food hog (though she still pauses and looks at me when I drop flakes - I think she prefers blood worms - Who said fish can't have a personality - Oscars must be a hoot). The Angel's fins are almost totally clean It didn't clear up immediately as I thought it would with medicated food - though this doesn't mean much - Historically this stuff comes back in 24 hours and goes away just as fast...

The rest of the tank (including the other Angels) is happy singing kumbaya...

Water Conditions:
pH 6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 10 - 20 (the orange on the API kits is hard to differentiate as is the green for pH)
Temp 79 degrees

1. I think that the medicated food didn't really do much as the fins cleared up like they normally do. Maybe it's resistant to Maracyn Plus.
   
2. Thus, I'm tempted to set up the quarantine tank with about 2/3 water from the main. I have the quarantine filter running on the main this week with the old filter sponge, so it should be ready to go.
   
3. Treatment will be Furan-2 for 4 days following the box directions.

Any feedback as to wait or go ahead. She's happy, and I don't wanna lose her - she was $25 at quarter sized, non Koi this size at the LFS are $75... Cost aside, I have become attached to this angel... My friends make fun of me - I'm now the crazy fish guy

*On a complete aside - One of the newer angels must be crossed with wild type as I guessed. I've named him/her "Elmer Fudd" as it tried to "hunt" neon tetras for the first couple days in the tank. They are much faster (Angel's are made for stealth as hunters and NOT for speed) and there is so much plant cover that it was a massive FAIL - But fun to watch. It didn't really eat for a few days and then got the idea that I'm the food, not the neons, and has given up, LOL...

Hope all goes well!