How do guppies act when ammonia/nitrate is high?

[Kashta]

Back to the OP's situation. Fish will swim directly into the stream for two reasons.... (1) because they like doing it and it's fun for them, or (2) because they are suffering and their gills are hurting either from toxic poisoning (or sometimes parasites).... they are captive in a small place and are drawn to the water searching for somewhere cleaner or fresher.

Since you are cycling a new tank, you should take that behavior as confirmation that you have deadly levels in the water.

 

[kiddevo]

The phrase "it is rumored..." is basically a simple blanket disclaimer. It allows the user to say anything. It is how conspiracy/monster/alien stories are born.

Yes, bacteria like oxygen in their environment. The wet/dry concept works around that idea. But an airpump isn't even in the same ballpark as that concept. And a person suggesting that someone go out and buy a product that may or may not work based on a rumor is a bad idea.

It could be 100% random, but my tank was fishless cycling for about 5 weeks, Nitrites spiked for at least one week (off the charts using API liquid test). Feeling impatient, I cranked the pump on my airstone to really bubble the top of the tank. Previously it had been at a trickle. The next morning Nitrites = 0. Im not saying the extra agitation/aeration put it over the top, but it certainly didn't hurt the situation....

 

[eco23]

Just to chime in on a couple things...

First, as stated, a quality test kit like an API Master kit is a vital aspect of fishkeeping, especially during cycling. Strips are normally useless and you might as well be guessing the levels. I understand $ or transportation issues, but you can find API kits for reasonable prices on sites like Amazon.

I also agree that daily 50% pwc's are a good idea until you are able to test your levels. Also having a quality dechlorinator (I prefer Seachem Prime) will help temporarily neutralize ammonia and nitrIte for 24-36 hours. If I understand, it's a single Guppy in your tank? If so, there is not any significant bio-load, but in an uncycled tank the ammonia can eventually build over time.

Pwc's will not hurt your cycle since there are virtually nil amounts of BB which reside in the water column. Just make sure you are dechlorinating the water and temp matching. It's also a good idea to do pwc's fairly quickly, since even though the majority of your BB is in the filter media, anywhere there is bio-film...there is some degree of bacteria. I personally recommend doing enough pwc's to keep the ammonia and no2 below .25 until the tank is stabilized.

As to the air stone issue. Nitrifying bacteria are aerobic and benefit from high oxygen environments (hence why they tend to focus in the filter media). The bubbles moving through the water do absolutely nothing, but as stated, increased surface agitation = more o2 exchange = higher dissolved oxygen content. I'm not saying it's a make or break situation...but during a cycle any little thing helps and is worth trying.

Also, I would personally highly recommend against continuing the "instant cycling" product. The vast majority of them do not contain true nitrifying bacteria...the contain heterotrophic bacteria which is able to do the job and cause conversion, but they are short lived and have the potential to outcompete the true nitrifyers. Believe me when I say that I've seen more than a few examples of crashed bio-filters being traced back to bottled bacteria. The only one I even have remotely any faith in is Tetra SafeStart (formally Bio-Spira). I'm not as concerned with that one...but I still wouldn't let it near one of my tanks.

Moral of the story...find a way to monitor levels, get a quality dechlorinator like Seachem Prime (which contains additional benefits), perform water changes as necessary, avoid the bacteria boosters IMO...and stock slowly and conservatively once the tank is proven stable.

 

[kiddevo]

Not to beat a dead horse... but..... I was under the impression that Bacteria grew on filter media because thats where their food is! The filter has the highest concentration what they need to survive. That along with increased surface area to attach. Nothing to do with oxygen. Is this incorrect or is it a combination? :lipssealedsmilie:

 

[homedog98]

It's a combo.

 

[eco23]

Not to beat a dead horse... but..... I was under the impression that Bacteria grew on filter media because thats where their food is! The filter has the highest concentration what they need to survive. That along with increased surface area to attach. Nothing to do with oxygen. Is this incorrect or is it a combination? :lipssealedsmilie:

The food source that the nitrifying bacteria consume are throughout the entire water column since they are chemical compounds, not the actual organic debris that produces it. That is why the normal recommended media placement is mechanical, chemical (which is normally unnecessary IMO), followed by biological filtration. The key is to actually provide the cleanest water possible to the bio-media so it can colonize the BB without being exposed to too much actual debris and require constant cleaning.

As other members stated...water agitation is the key to o2 exchange...I'm not aware of anywhere in an aquarium of where more agitation would occur than the filter where water is being churned through at the highest rate of speed, and also being agitated as it flows through the media.

Again, I'm not saying airstones are a solution to anything, but increased surface agitation does promote more o2 exchange. That is why in high tech planted tanks it is advisable in cases to run air stones in the evening when co2 is not being added.

In most cases air stones or bubble wands are purely for aesthetics, but in many cases you can have a bio-film develop on the water surface of there is not enough movement created by the powerhead or return from a HOB filter which would show it does indeed create more agitation.

One of the tricks during a fishless cycle is actually to lower the water level to a degree so the water is splashing down and breaking the surface. I have done cycles both with and without increased surface agitation and have noticed a measurable difference.

In this particular case however, it most likely makes no remarkable difference.

 

[kiddevo]

Agree to your point above that food source it is spread throughout. But if decaying matter, or waste, creates the food source (ammonia) as bacteria mulitply at the filter and create Nitrite, the highest concentration of these would also be at the filter no? As would the subsequent "nitrite eating" bacteria as that is where the highest concentration of Nitirite is.

This is in much the same way the oxygen is dispersed. The filter may be a "high oxygen environment" as you stated, but dissolved O2 will also be spread thoughtout the tank much the same way Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates will. But the highest concentration of oxygen will be at the filter.

 

[CaitxSith]

I always thought when ammonia poisoning started hitting in, fish start to have a hard time taking in oxygen and start gulping air from the surface of the tank.

I haven't been in the fishkeeping hobby in years, so I really wouldn't know.

 

[eco23]

Agree to your point above that food source it is spread throughout. But if decaying matter, or waste, creates the food source (ammonia) as bacteria mulitply at the filter and create Nitrite, the highest concentration of these would also be at the filter no? As would the subsequent "nitrite eating" bacteria as that is where the highest concentration of Nitirite is.

This is in much the same way the oxygen is dispersed. The filter may be a "high oxygen environment" as you stated, but dissolved O2 will also be spread thoughtout the tank much the same way Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates will. But the highest concentration of oxygen will be at the filter.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or asking a question, lol . Either way I think you've got it summed up. Beneficial bacteria does live on every surface of your tank (if you feel bio-film...there's bacteria there), but as you said, since the filter is highly oxygenated...that's where the main source is. An example would be that I've completely switched out every single bit of substrate (a low oxygen environment) and replaced it, normally it will cause a minor toxin spike for a day or two (if at all), but I've also removed substantial amounts of filter media to set up new tanks and donate to friends...and that situation created a more sustained mini-cycle which took several days and sever pwc's to stabilize.

I always thought when ammonia poisoning started hitting in, fish start to have a hard time taking in oxygen and start gulping air from the surface of the tank.

I haven't been in the fishkeeping hobby in years, so I really wouldn't know.

Agreed. Ammonia does decrease respiration ability due to damaging the gills. Obviously the cure is to do pwc's as needed to prevent the toxins from reaching dangerous enough levels to cause the damage in the first place. Another big key with toxicity is how NH3 and no2 relate to pH and temperature.

 

[Khemul]

Not to beat a dead horse... but..... I was under the impression that Bacteria grew on filter media because thats where their food is! The filter has the highest concentration what they need to survive. That along with increased surface area to attach. Nothing to do with oxygen. Is this incorrect or is it a combination? :lipssealedsmilie:

The bacteria tend to be in the filter because that is where the most real estate is. It may have a little to do with oxygen exchange and food sourcing, but for the most part it is because that is where they have the most surface area to live on. The filter media (at least bio-media) is designed to maximize surface area. Move into the saltwater world and it is often the opposite (since the bio-media is the rock sitting in the tank).