How do you peform your water changes?

RockabillyChick said:
people are telling you over and over and giving you plenty of proof and you just keep getting all nit-picky.
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And so have I, just reread all the posts I have posted on this thread. If you want another source call marine land and ask them why they say only to put the water conditioner for water changes of 50 percent or more. And no I'm not doing it to save a buck, I'm doing it because I have heard from experience fish keepers like the bailey brothers that fish do better like this.

As far as the proof I did read the site. Give me numbers like .006 mg/l which I have no idea how much that is. Homer you are saying that when you replace one gallon of water in a 10 gallon it raises the chlorine to 2.0, I will take your word from it, even though I would like to ask how you got that number because I don't see that in the site, but I'll problably get flamed for 'arguing' too much.

Either way, I will trust my source and you guys will trust yours. But my point was to provide a decent argument and let people decided and not be confined to just one point of view and sources.
 
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lets set the record straight here.

Jay reads on the FRONT of the bio-safe bottle that you should use it on water changes of 50% or more.

however he aperantly didn't see on the back of the bottle, it says "For water changes of less than 50%, use BIO-Coat."

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biosafe.asp right there under "critical care info"

i'd also like to add that is other "proof" is the following from this link http://www.****************/information/water_conditioner.htm#top2
" A long time ago as beginning aquarists, we made large water changes and used a lot of water conditioner. Then we discovered that our fish did better with more frequent small water changes, and that the fish seemed to do better without the water conditioner. We thought maybe the small amount of un-neutralized chlorine or chloramine reduced the number of pathogens in the water without harming our fish.

But recently we have learned that fish will do better, when AmQuel Plus is regularly added to the water in all aquariums.
It's also economical and convenient to use AmQuel Plus to make water that is safe for fish bowls, and it's wise to have enough AmQuel Plus on hand to deal with cloudy or foamy water or a disaster. Click here to buy Amquel Plus. Click here for more information about Amquel Plus."
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and also this http://www.****************/information/essentials_p2.htm#3

If you have a Fish Bowl, twice a week change 15% to 20% of the water. You can't use tap water straight from the faucet. Click here for the details on how to change water in your Fish Bowl.

If you have an Aquarium or Pond, twice a week remove 15% to 20% of the water and replace that water with fresh tap water from the faucet. You don't need to add Water Conditioner to the new water when you replace 20% or less.
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frankly, any website that reccomends putting any fish in a bowl, their crediblity with me drops into the toilet. sorry.
 
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RockabillyChick said:
Jay reads on the FRONT of the bio-safe bottle that you should use it on water changes of 50% or more.

however he aperantly didn't see on the back of the bottle, it says "For water changes of less than 50%, use BIO-Coat.".
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Your right it does say to add bio safe, but I"m still going to trust my www.**************** source, you guys trust what you want.
 
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jay after talking to you in the chat i believe your crazy and no one should lissen to you. a statment from a guy on a internet radio show or on a site means nothing. i can make a site and i can say well i dont put my fish in water. i think fish should be kept out of water. does that make it true? i hope not.
 
jay773 do not feel bad for trying to have a serious discussion about chlorine removal because it is something we all have to deal with. At the heart of this issue is the ethical dilemma involved in exposing fish a highly toxic element. Most of us feel that it is not only cruel to do so but completely unnecessary. The site I posted showed the effect of chlorine at certain levels (mg/l) on aquatic life. This common measurement is also expressed in the term we are all more familiar with ppm. Therefore 1 mg/l = 1 ppm. To determine the amount of chlorine in our tap water I researched the EPA and CDC websites to find what the average amount was. Interestingly enough the EPA allows water companies to add up to 4 ppm which is more than most swimming pool companies will say is safe to swim in. I then figured the diluted amount of chlorine when 1 gallon of untreated tap water is added to 9 gallons of aquarium water. The results seem to show that even at these low levels there are still serious risks to the health of the fish. While some people have exposed fish to these levels of chlorine in the past and have had success, it does not mean that they were treating the fish humanely. Ultimately it seems much more humane to not expose your fish unnecessarily to anything that could have ill effects on their health. Chlorine even in the smallest of doses will have adverse effects to the fish. If you have ever swam in a swimming pool with too much chlorine you should be able understand why. It really comes down to whether or not you want to treat your fish humanely or if you would rather unnecessarily risk the health of your fish. Most of us want the best for our fish.
 
Wait a minute..... The python actually puts water back in for you? I may pick one up TODAY!
 
Good lord! I had no idea. I've never really looked at them. I just thought the great thing about them were that they started the syphon automatically. geez! I've been doing 50% water changes on my 120 for the past two nights (have a small problem and it's taken me about an hour and a half each night. This will be perfect!
 
Jay, sorry you think I somehow misrepresented what they said by quoting it. It was the reason I quoted the sentences in complete paragraphs and linked the pages.

Here is another page on chlorine in the water and what it can do (note with these guys that they seem to mainly deal with ponds):
http://koiclubsandiego.org/library/chlorine.php

Here is a somewhat related article on how much chlorine is in the waters (they were testing it for drinking purposes, but I think "the amount of Chlorine in the unfiltered tap waters was double the maximum containment level" is still applicable)
www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0912.pdf

Here is another link recommending water treatment/filtering:
http://www.arlingtonva.us/departmen.../uepd/wquality/EnvironmentalServicesFish.aspx

Notable in this last link is that it says the Koi Club of San Diego found that replacing less than 1% of the total volume may be okay because the rest of the water can absorb the chloramine in it.

And this is a link with an article going over *other* problems that tap water can pose in addition to chlorine:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm


My conclusions: It's going to vary a *lot* based on where you live. Like I stated before, when I had fish 10 years ago I never used water conditioner. I changed less water per change and the local tap water was extremely untreated (they actually nearly got in trouble because of the lack of chlorine and other chemicals). Would I recommend this to other people? Of course not! They don't live where I did, and even if their water lacks chlorine it may have other harmful elements in it!

My general opinion is that, unless somebody wants to test *their* tap water up and down (and not just for chlorine), comparing how their aquarium water changes in response to it.... then just use conditioner, but in the proper amount. There is more to worry about with tap water than just chlorine levels.

As far as whether chlorine is beneficial to fish in small quantities because it reduced the other pathogens - the guys at petfish say they once thought it might be. Yet now they still regularly add water conditioner. Now, they aren't saying that chlorine doesn't harm fish, they aren't saying that chlorine is good for fish. They are saying their previous thoughts were that the chlorine reduced other pathogens (possibly in the tap water) that would also be dangerous to fish. Possibly a logic of better of two evils. Besides that, they have not gone into an in-depth discussion on how much chlorine is in their tap water, or any summaries of any tests they've performed to support that the good outweighs the bad. They're going by experience, it seems, rather than hard numbers.

Other experts at other sites say to use water conditioner, but the amount and regularity of its use will be dependent on your tank/changes.

I think this entire thread has been extremely informative not only in seeing the different methods people use to clean their tanks, but also in giving tips about how it could be done more easily and a fairly extensive debate on dechlorinators/conditioners/tap water.

Beyond that, though, I'm out of this thread =P

I think the topic of water conditioning should deserve it's own post - so people seeking out information on just that know where to look. Too bad you can't split a thread and post the water treatment posts of this thread in that one.
 
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