I have a deep sand bed (fine white play sand) in my 10 gallon. About 2.5-3 in. deep. It previously turned black because I didn't stir it. I removed the black sand, and I stir it most times I change the water. Its now stays a nice white color. 
How Freshwater Deep Sand Beds Work
- Thread starter DeeDeeK
- Start date
I think there are a lot of benefits to not stirring, and just allowing the process that causes the black parts to continue. Though unsightly, it appears to be healthy for the aquarium. I found this link:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/sulfint.shtml
And this chart:
DeeDeeK, please forgive me for hogging up your beautiful thread, but I really want to try to keep the discussion on this topic open. There is so much to learn!
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/sulfint.shtml
And this chart:
DeeDeeK, please forgive me for hogging up your beautiful thread, but I really want to try to keep the discussion on this topic open. There is so much to learn!
No, no, not all! Your input is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to this thread would attract! And while my ego will probably sting if I'm criticized or soundly contradicted, I would still encourage even that input. I've just wanted a discussion to happen.I think there are a lot of benefits to not stirring, and just allowing the process that causes the black parts to continue. Though unsightly, it appears to be healthy for the aquarium. I found this link:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/sulfint.shtml
And this chart:
DeeDeeK, please forgive me for hogging up your beautiful thread, but I really want to try to keep the discussion on this topic open. There is so much to learn!
I'd like to point out that in the anaerobic layer there are species of bacteria which use nitrate to oxidize H2S, as well as there being aerobic bacteria which oxidize H2S. These are largely chemolithoautotrophic, similar to the nitrifying bacteria.
Diana Walstad, in "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium," states that rooted plants can take advantage of the solublized iron and manganese (if I recall correctly, molybdenum too) because they send their roots down into the anaerobic zone. Also, she states that the roots carry oxygen downwards with them in order to survive in the low oxygen environment and that they create an aerobic microzone where bacteria which oxidize H2S and other metabolic byproducts of anaerobic metabolism.
I've buried bunches of dead roots down and the bottom of the sand, next to the glass, and waited until they turned very black and were surrounded by pitch black sand, then pulled them out and given them a sniff. They definitely had some hydrogen sulfide smell to them so I know there's sulfate reduction going on but despite all the bubbles the sand bed burps up, I've never smelled H2S.
Here's a link I found interesting. http://www.alken-murray.com/H2SREM6.HTM
I'd be interested in using their products to seed aquarium substrates.
Also, I'd like to try out the product, RTB 700, sold at this link:http://www.microbialogic.com/rtb_700.htm
I've a feeling that RTB 700 must contain sulfide oxidizing bacteria in order to control odors, and since the bacteria are all non-pathogenic, I'd definitely try 'em in an aquarium in small quantities.
:thm:Anyhow, thanks Anoxia for the interest in keeping this thread alive!
Thanks for the link! Unsightly or not, I think I will continue to stir because the smell got awful when I previously didn't stir it! The whole room it was in smelled horrendous! hahaI think there are a lot of benefits to not stirring, and just allowing the process that causes the black parts to continue. Though unsightly, it appears to be healthy for the aquarium. I found this link:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/nutrient/sulfint.shtml
And this chart:
DeeDeeK, please forgive me for hogging up your beautiful thread, but I really want to try to keep the discussion on this topic open. There is so much to learn!
Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm setting up a five gallon aquarium right now. It's going to be primarily for inverts. Shrimps, blackworms, scuds, and any cool little copepods or water fleas and whatnot that I can scare up or that hitchhike there. It will have MTS and pond snails as well. And of course it will be planted! I've been thinking watersprite, cabomba, and possibly eichhornia diversifolia. Definitely some java or xmas moss. It's already partly set up and has some duckweed. Though it is going to be primarily for breeding shrimp and blackworms, I will try and aquascape it nicely as I can.
Now for the question of substrate. I think my LFS has been selling me pool sand, telling me it's river sand. I think I'd like to try a slightly coarser sand. One thought has been to buy CaribSea's "Peace River" substrate, which is either a small gravel or large sand at approx. 1mm to 2mm average grain size maybe mixed with their "Torpedo Beach," which is from .2mm to 1.2mm in size. OR I could go to the local ceramic supply depot and buy a bag of grog, which is firebrick crushed into grains and screened for size. It's very sand-like but the grains are very roughly textured and you can select the screen size you like and it's cheap and comes by the 25lb or 50lb bag for about $0.75/lb plus or minus ten cents. Oh, and it's as chemically inert as stoneware or porcelain. The sizes range from very fine like fine sand to "pea grog," which is around the same size as pea gravel. Because of its texture, I think it must have hellacious surface area, especially the medium and smaller screens.
The second thing about the substrate is: Should I amend it? That basically means should I mix something in with it? I'm thinking of adding something like 1% to 5% topsoil or maybe this organic, compost based potting soil a friend just gave me. As an experiment, I used a turkey baster to inject the potting soil into the sand in my FWDSB in a few spots, mostly to see what would happen; nothing so far. I think it's probably got too much wood and peat in it to decay very quickly. But is that bad or good?
My other thought is to mix a tiny amount of fish food into the sand - sort of priming the mulm/decay process.
So, I am leaning toward grog/topsoil. Probably 20+ mesh (.841mm and smaller) size grog and whatever cheap organic topsoil I can find at a garden center. Or maybe just dig up from the yard. I'll probably put one handful of soil per every 20 to 40 of grog, which comes to about 2.5% to 5% soil by volume.
Now for the question of substrate. I think my LFS has been selling me pool sand, telling me it's river sand. I think I'd like to try a slightly coarser sand. One thought has been to buy CaribSea's "Peace River" substrate, which is either a small gravel or large sand at approx. 1mm to 2mm average grain size maybe mixed with their "Torpedo Beach," which is from .2mm to 1.2mm in size. OR I could go to the local ceramic supply depot and buy a bag of grog, which is firebrick crushed into grains and screened for size. It's very sand-like but the grains are very roughly textured and you can select the screen size you like and it's cheap and comes by the 25lb or 50lb bag for about $0.75/lb plus or minus ten cents. Oh, and it's as chemically inert as stoneware or porcelain. The sizes range from very fine like fine sand to "pea grog," which is around the same size as pea gravel. Because of its texture, I think it must have hellacious surface area, especially the medium and smaller screens.
The second thing about the substrate is: Should I amend it? That basically means should I mix something in with it? I'm thinking of adding something like 1% to 5% topsoil or maybe this organic, compost based potting soil a friend just gave me. As an experiment, I used a turkey baster to inject the potting soil into the sand in my FWDSB in a few spots, mostly to see what would happen; nothing so far. I think it's probably got too much wood and peat in it to decay very quickly. But is that bad or good?
My other thought is to mix a tiny amount of fish food into the sand - sort of priming the mulm/decay process.
So, I am leaning toward grog/topsoil. Probably 20+ mesh (.841mm and smaller) size grog and whatever cheap organic topsoil I can find at a garden center. Or maybe just dig up from the yard. I'll probably put one handful of soil per every 20 to 40 of grog, which comes to about 2.5% to 5% soil by volume.
If the topsoil has alot of wood pieces, as it decays, it will release such a large amount of nutrients that will end up feeding algae and most likely start an algae bloom. You should try earthworm castings; there's very little matter in it that would decay compared to topsoil. I have a 55G tank with an inch of earthworm castings at the bottom, middle layer is casting mixed w/Colorquartz S grade 3:1, then top layer is Colorquartz T grade. The majority of plants do fantastic in this substrate. Next step for me is to introduce the blackworms. I have been thinking about it for a while now. You helped finalize my decision with this thread. Thanks, DeeDeek!
The tip about earthworm castings is a good one, thanks!
I think I will stick with about 2.5% topsoil, however, because I want the decay and because I think it'll be a small enough quantity of topsoil that there won't be too large a nutrient surge. Also, I want to jumpstart the bacterial communities in the aerobic, anaerobic, and anoxic regions at the same time and I'm pretty sure topsoil will have the microbes I want plus it will supply the organic matter for them to decay.
In my scheme for the fwdsb, mulm disintegrates and sifts slowly down through the sand and decays further and further. In decaying, it releases it's mineral nutrients (iron, molydenum, potassium, etc.) and gases like CO2, which can be taken up by roots, and it feeds a balanced community of bacteria. Topsoil will get the process rolling while mulm is still just beginning to accumulate.
I'm intrigued by the idea of worm castings. I'll have to try them in one of the aquaria I'm setting up for sale.
It's so pleasing to see that any of my info/opinions have contributed to another's aquarium keeping practice. Enjoy the blackworms! Oh, and if you want to get rid of them, try kuhli loaches - they're like wolves to blackworms. Or a betta; bettas will endlessly, remorselessly hunt them down and eat them.
I can understand the sulfur odor being a concern to aquarists who might otherwise love deep sand bed filtration in their freshwater tanks. I did smell sulfur, especially when I pulled out a piece of wood that was partially buried in the sand. Eew! But I am happy to report that the sulfurous smell has now decreased to the point where I can just barely detect it, and only if I put my nose right over the water surface. I am hopeful that even this will disappear entirely once the necessary bacteria are fully matured. If not, that's fine, because like I said, it is very faint. I would consider the benefits worth that minor drawback.
If you do "seed" your substrate with that bacteria, DeeDeeK, will you post the effects? All I had at setup was a bottle of Seachem "Stability", which is pricey, and according to some not all that effective. I did wet the topsoil/red clay mixture I used, and let it sit and "marinate" a few days before I added it the aquarium. I thought that might give me a decent starter culture - whether it did or not, I don't know for sure. The cycle seemed brief, but intense, which could also be attributed to the large amount of preexisting mulm underneath.
The only algae I have right now is the amount I didn't bother scrubbing off of the rocks and wood before I put them in. The snails and pleco are keeping it in line, I think. I have heard that starting off with plenty of plants can prevent algae overgrowth through outcompetition, as well, and I'm sure having very low nitrates helps. If the topsoil was going to cause an algae attack in this tank, it probably would have ocurred by now.
Good luck with your invert farm. The crushed brick sounds like it certainly would have awesome surface area. I thought similarly about using crushed lava rock as a substrate (I heard lava rock described as "freshwater live rock") but I was worried that it might be too rough for the worm's mushy bodies. Perhaps just to be safe you could put the brick layer at the very bottom, out of worm reach...
If you do "seed" your substrate with that bacteria, DeeDeeK, will you post the effects? All I had at setup was a bottle of Seachem "Stability", which is pricey, and according to some not all that effective. I did wet the topsoil/red clay mixture I used, and let it sit and "marinate" a few days before I added it the aquarium. I thought that might give me a decent starter culture - whether it did or not, I don't know for sure. The cycle seemed brief, but intense, which could also be attributed to the large amount of preexisting mulm underneath.
The only algae I have right now is the amount I didn't bother scrubbing off of the rocks and wood before I put them in. The snails and pleco are keeping it in line, I think. I have heard that starting off with plenty of plants can prevent algae overgrowth through outcompetition, as well, and I'm sure having very low nitrates helps. If the topsoil was going to cause an algae attack in this tank, it probably would have ocurred by now.
Good luck with your invert farm. The crushed brick sounds like it certainly would have awesome surface area. I thought similarly about using crushed lava rock as a substrate (I heard lava rock described as "freshwater live rock") but I was worried that it might be too rough for the worm's mushy bodies. Perhaps just to be safe you could put the brick layer at the very bottom, out of worm reach...
I just wanted to share my recent experiences. Two weeks ago I tore down my planted 12 gallon and replaced the substrate with an inch of potting soil that contains lots of small pieces of wood, a couple handfuls of crushed coral and 2 inches of 3mm red flint. I replanted all the plants that were in the original set up (all crypts). The crypts had been multiplying but the growth wasn't great. I also gave the filter a heck of a scrubbing and was a little worried I killed too much nitrifying bacteria. I put the fish and snails back in the tank and hoped for the best. I did one 50% water change a few days later but that has been my only water change so far. The lighting is 2wpg, 6500K bulb, but the bulb is old and I really need to change it.
Over the last few days I've noticed the plants are already taking off. They have never looked this healthy. They've only gotten a little bigger but they seem to be standing taller and looking fuller. I've been keeping a close eye on the ammonia and nitrite and haven't detected any so far. I finally tested for nitrates last night and for the first time ever I got 0ppm! The pH is staying in the alkaline range, between 7.5 and 8. I have not seen any algae whatsoever. I usually have to scrap green dot algae off the glass but I haven't seen any since the change.
Because of the potting soil the water has a nice tea stained color. I like it and haven't made any effort to reduce it. I haven't added any blackworms yet but I'm considering it. The occupants of the tank, a pair of flag fish, seem really excited about all the changes. The male has it in his head that NOW is the time to spawn and he's been showing excellent coloring and giving the female more attention than she would prefer. I think extra tannins/humic acid in the water have something to do with this.
Over the last few days I've noticed the plants are already taking off. They have never looked this healthy. They've only gotten a little bigger but they seem to be standing taller and looking fuller. I've been keeping a close eye on the ammonia and nitrite and haven't detected any so far. I finally tested for nitrates last night and for the first time ever I got 0ppm! The pH is staying in the alkaline range, between 7.5 and 8. I have not seen any algae whatsoever. I usually have to scrap green dot algae off the glass but I haven't seen any since the change.
Because of the potting soil the water has a nice tea stained color. I like it and haven't made any effort to reduce it. I haven't added any blackworms yet but I'm considering it. The occupants of the tank, a pair of flag fish, seem really excited about all the changes. The male has it in his head that NOW is the time to spawn and he's been showing excellent coloring and giving the female more attention than she would prefer. I think extra tannins/humic acid in the water have something to do with this.
So...I've been considering a DSB for a 75G I am setting up.
OK, here we go...
Play sand was suggested by a friend, but I feel play sand compacts a bit TOO much. I went with ~ 50/50 play sand and pool filter sand. Approx 3 1/2" depth in a 75 G tank...or about 2 bags of play and 2 bags of pool filter sand.
Hard to explain but the texture FEELS right.
"seed" for the tank was the entire 2" of pool filter sand from an established 20G long...already full of malaysian trumpet snails. Also has some blackworms in it per DDKs suggestion.
Starting stock:10 Red Claw macro shrimp, 5 platys and 100+ Red Cherry shrimp.
Plants:najas grass, crypts, anubias, swords, wisteria, 2-4 red mangroves, java fern.
Lighting: 2 2x32W T8 shoplights.
"mission" for the tank: Plant and red claw macro shrimp growout. Fish isolation/fry growout (I plan to eventually divide the tank into 3 sections).
Not wanting to hijack...I'll start a new thread for this one...
OK, here we go...
Play sand was suggested by a friend, but I feel play sand compacts a bit TOO much. I went with ~ 50/50 play sand and pool filter sand. Approx 3 1/2" depth in a 75 G tank...or about 2 bags of play and 2 bags of pool filter sand.
Hard to explain but the texture FEELS right.
"seed" for the tank was the entire 2" of pool filter sand from an established 20G long...already full of malaysian trumpet snails. Also has some blackworms in it per DDKs suggestion.
Starting stock:10 Red Claw macro shrimp, 5 platys and 100+ Red Cherry shrimp.
Plants:najas grass, crypts, anubias, swords, wisteria, 2-4 red mangroves, java fern.
Lighting: 2 2x32W T8 shoplights.
"mission" for the tank: Plant and red claw macro shrimp growout. Fish isolation/fry growout (I plan to eventually divide the tank into 3 sections).
Not wanting to hijack...I'll start a new thread for this one...
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