Ich Issues

i still wonder if it is a personal preference in lieu of fact when it is said salt is better, as effective, works as quickly. so far it sounds like opinion to me. and i have done lots and lots of reading on the topic. I guess i was looking for the peer reviewed research to support the suggestions or beliefs. I have looked and have not found any.

there are other meds for ich treatment. malachite green is only one. it was used as an example. only because it was used in my tanks as mentioned. and, i did the gill, skin and fin samples looking for any residual ich. did not find any. and it has not resurfaced in years.

I guess the point i am trying to make is that the hyperbole regarding salt is just that. it is simply another way to treat ich. it is not quantifiably better, it has not been demonstrated to create less stress, it has not been documented to be faster or equal to other meds. it is simply another way to go.
 
This isn't rocket science.
If BOth are equally effective, Both take equal amounts of time and one is more harmful to your fish then the other is better. How that adds up to opinion not fact is beyond me. Opionion would be to say no one should never use meds, the fact is salt makes far more sense and is a better overall remedy. Because it is less stressful just as effective and works in the same amount of time. With that knowledge at hand if someone still choses to use meds, that is fine. If I kept nothing but HArdy scaled fish I might do that, but I would do so with the knowledge that salt will do the same thing without the stress and mess of medications.

The peer review is all over these boards and anywhere else in the hobby where people have experience with the use of salt and meds both. I killed enough fish with malechite green to fill a milk Jug. I killed a good number with acriflavin, and Formalin as well. I have yet to kill a fish using the salt treatment and have yet to have a recurring case of ich. After making this observation I did extensive research and then Wrote the article for others to use. I did not write the article based on my own observations and opinions, and did not write it without verifying multiple sources of the information.
The science is all over the internet on the effectiveness of salt, and all you need to do to see the difference in stress levels is to put fish in a tank with one and then the other. Before I started using salt for this parasite, I had come to the conclusion that ich was fatal to certain fish because they could not survive the use of meds. The article furthermore does state that meds are effective and gives enough information about the variables to help anyone using them.

The next time you have ich in a QT tank, Split the fish in half and subject one group to salt and one group to meds for a week. If you want to see exxagerated results make sure you have a couple of smooth skinned catfish, loaches or tetra's in the mix. A jack dempsey will not show you the difference in stress levels, a pictus or a loach will every time.
Dave
 
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jag76 said:
Secondly, I'm wondering what protocol is with regards to my approach with the local fish store. The Roseline Sharks represent a $100 investment and they are the only fish with symptoms. Based on that I'm half inclined to ask for at least a partial refund. Would that be completely out of line? Please understand that I'm a newbie here and I may be looking at this all wrong. I'm just looking at the spots, considering the risk to my other fish, and looking at the frayed edges on the fins of the Roselines and considering an analogies to "dry goods" I've purhased that have developed subsequent problems. Like I said though, I may be out of line so I wanted some input.
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Jag76,

To address your actual question -- and I apologize for hijacking your thread and not answering your question -- I don't think you are out of line at all.

Fish ARE goods. When you pay a lot of money for a fish, you don't bloody well expect it to come home with ich, that's for sure.

I would most definitely approach the store about it and I personally would not shop for fish at that store again. Not expensive fish, anyhow. Most likely the shark picked up the ich at the store and not the breeder.

Next time you might want to consider buying from a reputable online breeder and eliminate the "middleman" LFS. They have a lot more to lose by shipping bad stock as word of mouth is a killer on the internet. Therefore, most make sure the stock they ship is healthy and parasite free.

Roan
 
Roan Art said:
Jag76,

To address your actual question -- and I apologize for hijacking your thread and not answering your question -- I don't think you are out of line at all.

Fish ARE goods. When you pay a lot of money for a fish, you don't bloody well expect it to come home with ich, that's for sure.

I would most definitely approach the store about it and I personally would not shop for fish at that store again. Not expensive fish, anyhow. Most likely the shark picked up the ich at the store and not the breeder.

Next time you might want to consider buying from a reputable online breeder and eliminate the "middleman" LFS. They have a lot more to lose by shipping bad stock as word of mouth is a killer on the internet. Therefore, most make sure the stock they ship is healthy and parasite free.

Roan
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Thank you for actually addressing my question!

With regards to salt, I considered it and decided against it based on the fact that I have several species of fish that are likely to have a very difficult time with it. From everything I've read, the quinine should be harmless to everyone in the tank. I completely agree with the stance taken against the majority of ich meds, but it seems as if everyone is discussing formalin and malechite green (and the like), none of which I ever even considered.
 
While I certainly won't argue the Quinine since I have not tested it or researched it, Salt will not harm freshwater fish in short term treatments. The Myth of salt sensative fish comes from Folks who either use salt Chronically or Folks who don't take the time to mix the salt and add it in sensible amounts over a period of time. Almost all fish said to be salt sensative are also extra sensative to meds. In the end the meds prove fatal and the salt proves useful. I am quite interested in the quinine at least for my own curiosity if nothing else. It would be good to see something else that my pictus cats can tolerate should I ever have need of it. Keep us posted on how it works out. And I too am sorry for this post getting so far from your original question.
Dave
 
Well, so far so good, it's kind of early to know how well the quinine will work, but it doesn't seem to be bothering anyone (including my black ghost knife and 2 whiptail cats who should be really sensitive). Almost all of the spots have fallen off of the Roseline Sharks and as of yesterday I noticed a few spots that popped up on one of my Angelfish (I assume he contracted it prior to my starting treatment), but everyone else is clear as of now (knock on wood). Temp is steady at 85 degrees (worked it up from 79 degrees over 3 days). And my fingers are crossed.

I went into the fish store to talk to them about the issue and was basically told to F' off. First thing I did was go to look at the tank. There are several other fish in there with ich symptoms which manifested after my purchasing the Roselines, but they are continuing to sell fish out of it (even though I warned them). I even pointed it out again to the manager who I spoke with today and he told me that he didn't think it was a problem because it was only on a "few" fish (in between telling me that the ich in my tank didn't come from his store). Guess it goes to show....all I asked for was a refund for the $50 worth of ich meds I bought. Couldn't even get that. Kind of pisses me off because I have spent a good deal of money in there. Oh well...after seeing how they handled the tank situation I'd never buy another fish from them anyway.
 
Probably for the best that you find out now what they are like.

What other fish do you have in there besides the sharks and cats? I mean, did you have other fish in there as well that could have carried the ich?

Thanks for letting us know about the quinine. I'm really interested in how it works out so please keep posting?

Thanks!
Roan
 
Roan Art said:
Probably for the best that you find out now what they are like.

What other fish do you have in there besides the sharks and cats? I mean, did you have other fish in there as well that could have carried the ich?

Thanks for letting us know about the quinine. I'm really interested in how it works out so please keep posting?

Thanks!
Roan
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I had some serpei tetras, 2 angels, a couple of different gouramis, a CAE, and a black ghost knife in addition to the cories and whiptail cats, then I added the sharks, and upside down cats last Tuesday. Before them I never had an ich problem and my last addition before Tuesday was a month ago. I know a lot of people say that ich always lives in your tank, but I've read a lot and it seems hard to believe given its life cycle at 79 degrees (the usual temp of my tank) so I'm quite positive it came in with the sharks.

My water is really good (PH between 6.8 and 7.0 depending on the time of day, ammonia 0, nitrates nearly 0 and never above 5, nitrites 0, and just a bit on the soft side. It's always very stable as I've been careful never to add anything except water conditioner. I think the filtration is really good as well. It's an 80 gallon tank and I have a fluval 404 and an emperor 400.
 
The ich probably did come with the sharks. I am curious about the quinine treatment also. Quinine has been used for years on humans to treat malaria and was very effective until recently when medication resistant malaria parasites popped up. I've heard about its use on fish but never actually saw it for sale. Good luck with the ich just make sure you treat for a minimum of 3 days after every symptom goes away. You don't want ich coming back with a vengence.
 
Supposedly you do 2 runs of the Quinine, one for a week, change the water and filter it out then do another run for another week dosing EOD at 250 mg per 10 gallons both runs.

The product I started with is called Quinsulex by Aquatronics, but so I learned they have gone out of business and I was only able to get enough for 1 run. For the second course I managed to locate some Quinine HCI powder in bulk from a chem supply house (which wasn't much more than the Quinsulex) and I'm going to weigh it out in 2 gram increments for each dose.
 
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