Ick treatment advice needed

Shelzbells said:
I have used the ick clear fizzing tablets before, and I swear by them!!! I only had to treat the tank once and the ICH was gone within a couple days. No fish were lost either. Everybody in the tank was fine after. I did do a 25% water change before adding the med. Then another one a week later. Maybe I just had good luck, but I was amazed how well that med worked for me.

But at what cost have your fish gone through to endure the medication? Salt is a more natural substance than any chemical can ever be, and it's always better to add the least amount of man-made chemicals to the tank's water. Whether you use salt or chemicals to treat though, both will stress the fish if even just a little. The major difference between the two though is that salt will do less damage overall and has no chance of harming the biofilter. Other chemical treatments will stress fish far more, can harm the biofilter even if some claim they don't (not all will though), creates a more unnatural environment for fish in terms of water chemistry, can be filtered out by your filter if you have carbon making the treatment useless, and can even severely harm some of your more "fragile" fish types like crustaceans or catfish. On the other hand, water that has been treated with salt, if added in small incriments at a time, and at proper dosages, will only slightly stress the fish if at all. You weigh your options. Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
At the first sign of ick, (usually when a fish is brand new) I just add half doses of Quick Cure (1 drop per 2 gallons) once a day, with carbon still in the filter, and the temp in my tanks is always at 81 (this is why it's crucial to catch ick when it first shows up, because at that temp, it will spread fast).

This method worked with my most delicate fish (i.e. clown loaches, and gold nugget pleco) without losing any.

Basically, the half dose dillutes the medication so that sensitive fish aren't harmed. I add the medication into the outflow of the filter so that it is evenly dispursed throughout the tank, and then the carbon in the filter removes the medication within an hour or two. This way, your sensitive aren't exposed to the medication for too long, and if you keep dosing the same way everyday, within 2-3 days, all the parasites are dead.


HTH,
Serg
 
Thanks a lot for the comments guys. I think I'm going to try using salt as directed by dave's article, as that seems to be the most popular method.

Valleyvampiress: I'm definitely going to look in to getting a QT tank, but at this stage my tank is nearly at my planned stocking level so I'm not planning on adding any more new fish for a long while. The only thing I'm still trying to find is a trio of otocincli, but none of our LFS's seem to have any. I'll also wait for the ick situation to clear up before I even think about looking for them.

Shelzbells: Did you use the Jungle meds on the 75 gal in your sig? Did you use a full dosage or half dosage? I'm still quite tempted to use the med, but I want to avoid it so that I can take it back unopened and get a refund for it, or maybe exchange it for something else.

Serg: As I said I'm from South Africa, and I've never seen that med anywhere. Thanks for your input though.

Thanks to everyone who's helped me out with this ordeal.

Ryan
 
I have used the ick clear fizzing tablets before, and I swear by them!!! I only had to treat the tank once and the ICH was gone within a couple days.

Basically, the half dose dillutes the medication so that sensitive fish aren't harmed. I add the medication into the outflow of the filter so that it is evenly dispursed throughout the tank, and then the carbon in the filter removes the medication within an hour or two. This way, your sensitive aren't exposed to the medication for too long, and if you keep dosing the same way everyday, within 2-3 days, all the parasites are dead.

Both of you should take the time to do some research. neither of these methods has much of a chance at all of killing ich, Aside from the possibility of complete and unbelievable good luck, my guess is you both still have ich in your tanks and sooner or later it will show up strong again. You need to learn a little bit about ich and you will understand what I am suggesting. ICH hides very well.
Dave
 
Both of you should take the time to do some research. neither of these methods has much of a chance at all of killing ich, Aside from the possibility of complete and unbelievable good luck, my guess is you both still have ich in your tanks and sooner or later it will show up strong again. You need to learn a little bit about ich and you will understand what I am suggesting. ICH hides very well.

Dave, I fully respect all of your advice, and I am well aware of your scientific background and years of experience with the hobby. But I'm sure there is NO ich in any of my tanks, especially since the temperature is constantly at 81, and with the weekly water changes, any of the parasites hiding/dormant in the gravel, etc... would be stirred up and become active because of the temp.

Why does my method not have a chance at killing ich? Because it's not your preferred method? I think your biased opinion pushes through quite a bit with that statement.

sooner or later it will show up strong again
I never had a strong outbreak. Just a few specs developed on the clowns when I first got them about a month ago. After the treatment, nothing, and I didn't lose any of my clowns.

Trust me, I have researched ich. How do you think I know about higher temps accelerating the parasites life cycle? I know that the only way to kill it is when it's in it's larval stage, when it's not protected by it's rough shell.

I know about the salt treatment, and found that clowns are sensitive to salt in the water as well as medications. Which is why I opted for the method I used. I'd rather expose them for a few hours a day during the treatment, to diluted medication, rather than the suggested dosage of salt for several days.

Now I know you'll never agree with my method, and as you and I both know, you don't have too. I'm certainly not asking you too. I'm also not pushing my method on anyone, all I did was post what worked for me. If in the future I get a new fish, and it has ich, I'll deffinitely use the same method.


Serg
 
But I'm sure there is NO ich in any of my tanks, especially since the temperature is constantly at 81, and with the weekly water changes, any of the parasites hiding/dormant in the gravel, etc... would be stirred up and become active because of the temp.

Ich has no dormant stage ever for any reason, and while it does lay in the substrate for a few days as part of it's life cycle, it is fully active with reproduction, with or without stirring gravel up. Gravel stirring has no effect whatsoever on ich.

I certainly do hope you don't still have ich in your tank, but the odds of your method killing it are far to big for it to ever be considered a good reccomendation. Loaches are far less sensative to salt than they are to meds, and secondly, meds at half dose are only marginally effective in a perfectly clean tank with no carbon running. therefore meds at half dose in an inhabited active tank, with carbon in the filter will serve no real purpose except to irritate your fish and kill a few of the freeswimmers while still allowing parasites to remain on your fish's gills.

Why does my method not have a chance at killing ich? Because it's not your preferred method? I think your biased opinion pushes through quite a bit with that statement.

Your methods are clearly a gamble given the time frames life cycle, and basic understanding of ICH. The meds you use may be perfectly fine properly administered, but improperly adcministered they risk your fish and your money as well. This in and of it's own is your buisiness, but when it's placed on the boards for everyone to read, it needs to be clarified to prevent myths from continuing in the hobby.

None of this is personal, I enjoy your input as well and have learned much from you on the boards. I appreciate good discussion and am always looking for new information. But when dealing with a parasite that has specific vulnerabilities, and specific time periods, it is essential to treat properly and for a long enough period to ensure irradication. ICH can and will live in Tanks for years without ever showing up as a visible white spot on the outside skin of a fish. the entire time it will continue its life cycle and cause damage to your fish. and then one day when something else goes wrong, it will be everywhere. I cannot say if your tank does or does not have ich living in it, but I can say with a surety that the method you used has odds which are so greatly in favor of the parasite that If it were my tank I would be extremely worried.
Dave
 
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None of this is personal, I enjoy your input as well and have learned much from you on the boards. I appreciate good discussion and am always looking for new information. But when dealing with a parasite that has specific vulnerabilities, and specific time periods, it is essential to treat properly and for a long enough period to ensure irradication. ICH can and will live in Tanks for years without ever showing up as a visible white spot on the outside skin of a fish. the entire time it will continue its life cycle and cause damage to your fish. and then one day when something else goes wrong, it will be everywhere. I cannot say if your tank does or does not have ich living in it, but I can say with a surety that the method you used has odds which are so greatly in favor of the parasite that If it were my tank I would be extremely worried.

Not taken personal at all. Well, now I'm beginning to think that I've gotten some bad information from the people and sources I've turned to for advice on ich.

What I don't understand is how the parasite can live in an aquarium without attaching to a host. I've been told that ich can't continue it's life cycle without a host.

And I'm still worried about using salt with my clowns. They are very healthy and active, but if the parasite can continue to do damage while not showing up as cysts on the skin, I think I'll have to try the salt method.


Serg
 
What I don't understand is how the parasite can live in an aquarium without attaching to a host. I've been told that ich can't continue it's life cycle without a host.

It hides in the aquarium via the host actually. It cannot remain without fish to live on but does not always manifest itself as an outbreak of spot in plain sight.
There are several factors that work in a healthy fish's favor with ich.
First and foremost the slime coat which protects the fish from the freeswimming ich, and secondly a fish's immune response. Immune response is something I'm just starting to learn about, but basically fish that live with ich in the tank and have suffered an attack (so to speak) tend to be more resistive to big outbreaks later. This is one of the things I'm trying to research for part two of the ich article, but haven't gotten far.

Now for the hiding ich issue. Since the skin is fairly well protected and will ward off most freeswimmers, then the only real vulnerable spot on a fish is the gills. Gills are a preferred spot for most external parasites, they are thin, tender, have no slime coat, and carry a lot of oxygen rich blood very close to the surface. The problem is we can't see what is on a fish's gills unless it hangs out or causes so much damage as to draw our focus. When an ich tomont hatches it litterally releases hundreds ( con be more than 2000) freswimming theronts. so each ich spot you see on your fish potentially becomes 2000 + or - freeswimmwers. Only one of them has to find the gills of your fish and successfully attach itself to continue the life cyle. So even with fish that are highly resistive to ich, if one tomont hatches, the chance of none of those freeswimmers finding a gill is really slim. Since the freeswiming stage is the only stage where the ich parasites are vulnerable, and it is a short window amidst several days of life cycle, treatment needs to be kept at full gusto for an extended period to ensure that all ich is killed. if one survives, and then another and so on the life cycle continues indefinately, and largely unnoticed. One ich cyst on a fish gills will not cause much damage, but 3 or four every two weeks for an extended period will eventuallycause enough scarring and damage to have an effect. Not to mention that if some other source of stress (i.e. drop in temperature) weakens your fish's immune system you suddenly have an outbreak on your hands. This is where the Myth was spawned and is perpetuated. The marketing of meds doesn't help with this because customers want results to be instantaneous (me included) and the marketing folks know how fast ich will falll off of the fish, so they can promise results in 4-5 days, and most the time the appearance of success is there. I fell prey to this many times for many years, I also lost a lot of really beautiful catfish over the years. I have not kept loaches, but it is my understanding that they are as succeptable to ich as my pictus cats are, and I generally consider them the same when discussing treatment. But I know for a fact because I have seen it in my tank that even the most succeptable fish will develope enough resistance to make ich seem gone, only to have it rear it's ugly head later.

I hope that helps and clarifies, and assure you that my opinions and preferred methods are not the only ones that work, but there are many reccomended methods that just can't work because of the way ich lives.

Watch for flashing with your fish. if they flash even once a week, there is cause for concern. Ich is not the only cause, but a healthy fish will not flash or scratch, every time I convince myself that some fish just flash or scratch for fun, I later find out there was a problem.
Dave
 
Just a quick update:

I'm at 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon, I haven't started raising the temp yet. The activated carbon is back in too. The neons are playing silly little neon games a bit more than they used to (and their colours are looking a lot better), and the one cory that used to spaz out a lot is quite a bit calmer. The bubble blower is still blowing bubbles but its a lot less frequent now. Could salt have actually been beneficial to them (besides killing ick of course)? I also lowered the waterlevel a bit so that the power filter would agitate the surface more. I tried adding an airstone but the betta didn't seem to keen on it and sulked in the corner. As soon as I turned it off he was back to his old self. Maybe he doesn't like the noise or something.

So there have been no obviously adverse effects to adding the salt, I'll keep adding some more tomorrow morning.

Thanks again

Ryan.
 
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