Ick treatment advice needed

[daveedka]

Could salt have actually been beneficial to them

There are many who would say that salt has some therapeutic value. I tend to disagree from experience, and haven't found any information that truly says it has therapeutic value. There is a lot of speculation and some highly arguable science behind it, but very little true straightforward backing of salts ability to soothe.
With Most fish, salt does not cause any real short term stress, and therfore it tends to give the impression of being a soothing agent when you switch from meds to salt as you have done.
There is an additional study of Osmoregulation which is in itself a huge subject. Fish are at a different pressure than the water around them, and things pass in and out of the fish via osmosis (this is really a flinstone description so to speak) salt changes the water pressure and reduces the differential. some believe this has a therapeutic effect with fish that are already highly stressed. I haven't done enough research to say yes or no definatively, but do know for sure that natural processes such as osmoregulation are best not tampered with with healthy fish. there are two reasons why I feel the salt method is far superior to others for ich, #1 is the fact that Salt doesn't reduce itself in a tank, whatever you add stays there, the second is plain and simple it doesn't cause nearly the stress that meds do to any fish I know of. When we talk about fish being sensative to salt or meds either one we have to view them as short term, and in the case of salt it has very little negative effect on fish short term.

I will say that I have done enough research to know that under no circumstances is it a good idea to use sodium Chloride in a freshwater tank long term, but for treatments such as ich, it has a lot of value.
Dave

 

[valleyvampiress]

So I have a question that I hope you can answer for me Daveedka, ich isn't dormant, it doesn't always live in your tank water, rather your tank becomes infected from another fish or tank water that is already infected, so where does ich originally come from? Is it just contaminants from wild fish? How did it even come to be if everyone gets it from somewhere else? Basically, what is the main source?

 

[daveedka]

Ich is a natural wild parasite, and probably the most common one out there. It comes in with wild caught fish, spreads and grows and spreads and grows. In the wild, when it falls off of a fish, the sheer odds of it finding a host when it hatches are phenominal. Therefore it seldom if ever manifests itself in the wild the way it does in a tank. too much volume of water with too little hosts. When we put the fish in a closed environment we give ich the upper hand so it is much more of a scourge in the aquarium than it ever could be in the wild. Fish breeders transporters and LFS's cannot possibly quarantine every fish or treat it for the time needed to ensure there is never ich in their tanks. The best of the best LFS's control it quite well, but they still recieve it constantly in shipments and have to fight it constantly. It would be suprising to find a comercial breeder or supplier that doesn't have it. It multiplies in numbers designed to ensure survival in the wild, and we put it in a closed environment, those numbers are massive. Each hatching tomont becomes 2000 new swimmers looking for a host. in our tanks a host is easy to find. so if 50 get attached, then at the next hatching we have 100,000 freswimmers in our tank. in the wild, if one in 2000 finds a host, it's an out and out miracle, and every time the ich sheds from the fish, that fish has the potential to leave and not be around for repeat infections, so ich is seldom if ever fatal in the wild.

Now just for effect imagine you own a catfish farm, and you buy 100,000 catfish and stick them in a 4 acre holding pond with good circulation and extreme aireation. you feed them every day, and one ich cyst came in with your shipment and hatched. in 3 weeks time your entire crop of fish can be covered head to toe and dying from ich. This is the kind of finacial disater that causes people to get very serious. If you really want to get into this parasite deeply, the best studies and info are circulating around the catfish farming industry, not the aquarium hobby. The best part of researching the fish farm industry is that buisinessmen hire professionals, and don't buy into myths. so there is much more good science and much less hearsay in that realm. Although results oriented buisiness studies are much harsher than what we are used to reading, there is excellent info generated that we can benifit from.

I feel like I'm babbling now so I better go to sleep.
HTH
Dave

 

[Nuriel]

If you really want to get into this parasite deeply, the best studies and info are circulating around the catfish farming industry, not the aquarium hobby. The best part of researching the fish farm industry is that buisinessmen hire professionals, and don't buy into myths. so there is much more good science and much less hearsay in that realm. Although results oriented buisiness studies are much harsher than what we are used to reading, there is excellent info generated that we can benifit from.

I feel like I'm babbling now so I better go to sleep.
HTH
Dave

excellent post!!!
:dive2:

 

[valleyvampiress]

Thank you very much for thoroughly answering that Daveedka. I appreciate that you take the time to answer a lot of us newbies questions, even if you have to repeat yourself tons of times. Thanks again. It's a real pleasure to have people like you on this board.

 

[Jamester]

I have some Mollies and Platies in my tank that are flashing but I see no white spotson them. I've seen them flash for a couple weeks now. I have kept salt (1 tbl to 5 gals) in my tank since I set it up in January because of the livebearers. My water temp is about 80F. How is it that the salt and warm temps are not working? And, why flashing but no spots? What should I do?

 

[daveedka]

How is it that the salt and warm temps are not working?

Depending on which ich strain you are fighting, this may not be enough salt. Most strains (there are a bunch, but I don't know actual numbers) will be killed off by low salt, but some are more resilient, and 1 tbsp per five gallon is below the minimum usually recomended for treatment, and although 1 teaspoon per gaollon is the minimum recomended, I always go at least 2 tsp per gallon for safety. The common reccomendation of 1 tbsp per 5 gallons has no value that I can find. It isn't enough for ich, it is far more than needed for nitrite treatment, and there (as far as I know) is no other justifiable reason to put salt in a tank. I would research salt a bit and save yourself the trouble. If you want to harden your water for your livebearers, I would go the route of simulating normal hard water (calcium, magnesium etc.)
Here is one of the better articles about salt use I kow of, and also one that deals directly with mollies and similar livebearers.
http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modul...ns&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=54&page=1
http://tcoletti.tripod.com/molly_salt_debate.html

And, why flashing but no spots? What should I do?

Flashing has many causes. ICH is by far the most common, but I have had a pretty long and irritating experience with flashing in fish that I knew for a fact did not have ich. In my case I am fairly convinced it was gill flukes. Check out info on gill flukes here is one article:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/trematodes.shtml
and also Velvet (oodinium): http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/othprotist.shtml

I doubt velvet is the cause as it is usually very quick to take over and kill fish, but it's possible to have a subclinical infection just like with ich. Velvet is affected by salt, but as I understand salt is not a surefire way to rid fish of velvet, so using salt may be holding it in check without killing it off completely
HTH
Dave

 

[Jamester]

Thanks Dave, for responding to my post. I find your knowledge to be very helpful.

Last night I did notice white spots on my Pearl Gourami and on one of my Von Rio Tetras. I am going to increase the salt and bump up the temperature to 82°-84°F. After the Ick is gone I will slowly phase out the salt. I've been thinking about going salt free anyway. I'm thinking it's the reason why my ghost shrimp keep dying...they only stay alive for about a month.

I live in Missouri and my water is pretty hard here, so I think my livebearers will be just fine w/o the salt.

Thanks again,
James

 

[Slashdogg]

Me again... Its really great to see that the thread has helped out other people too. Thanks again Dave, you're officially my hero.

Just a quick update: I've really looked closely at all my fish and I can see no sign of those dreaded white spots at all. They've all stopped flashing, and I haven't even raised the temp yet. The salt is at a concentration of about 1.5 tsp per gallon, I'll add the rest tomorrow. Should I even bother raising the temp? I'm a bit worried about the cories, and all the symptoms appear to be gone. Surely if I keep it salinated for the next week or so I'll be in the clear?

Thanks again for all the help.

Ryan.

 

[Jamester]

Well, I added more salt (2 tbs per gal) and raised my water temp to 85*F. Within a couple days the Ick has fallen off the fish. But then, a few days later I notice what looked like Ick, not as big and not as noticeable though, on the tail of my Pearl Gourami. She has to be right under the light in order to see it. It's kinda weird because the spots haven't grown or fallen off since I noticed it a few days ago. And she is eating great and very active. I would think that if it was Ick it would have fallen off by now in these temps. I don't think it's Velvet because it's not yellow and it's only a few spots on her tail fin (doesn't Velvet spread all over the body and kill fast?). It almost looks kinda sparkley like her scales. Maybe its just her colors starting to spread to her tail since she is young (I have only had her for 2 weeks now). Any clues? Anybody? Dave?