Thank you for informing me that my techniques and suggestions for fish-keeping are considered "silly". Well, if keeping fish in a manner such that they can reach full normal adult size is sily, so be it. I much prefer being considered silly than abusing my fish.
Is my tank over stocked?
- Thread starter only6foot6
- Start date
superstein, I am not missing your point. I do think you are a little misguided.
While it is true that many fish kept in aquaria do not reach the full sizes given in the literature, this is because many aquariasts overstock their tanks or otherwise do not provide their fish sufficient room to grow. Many fish will not reach their proper size when they are in overcrowded conditions or when they are kept in a tank that is too small for them. This is just a fact, and it is called "stunting" their growth. Whether you believe in the concept of stunting a fish's growth is irrelevant; the fact is that it happens.
If you base your maximum sizes on average sizes of fish that are kept in that type of environment, then right off the bat you are never giving them a chance to lead a healthy, happy life.
I suspect you may be basing your opinions on sizes of fish at the lfs's. Most of the fish you see at lfs's are not adults but juveniles. It is cost effective and good business sense for the person raising the fish to get one batch out to the store as soon as reasonably possible, so he/she can get on with the next batch. Thus more often than not, the fish stores receive juveniles from their suppliers, and this is what they put in their display tanks. If you are basing your estimates on what you see at the store, you are using juvenile specimens as an estimate of the full adult size.
I, for one, try to treat my pets with respect, compassion, and kindness. I will never knowingly put fish in a tank where they would not be comfortable as full-grown adults, because realistically, this will be their only home for the rest of their lives.
To find out the best possible estimate of full-grown adult fish, I consult references published by experienced hobbyists and well-respected sites. I do not consider these practices "silly", and think you would do well to treat the rest of us here with a little respect, as we do to you.
While it is true that many fish kept in aquaria do not reach the full sizes given in the literature, this is because many aquariasts overstock their tanks or otherwise do not provide their fish sufficient room to grow. Many fish will not reach their proper size when they are in overcrowded conditions or when they are kept in a tank that is too small for them. This is just a fact, and it is called "stunting" their growth. Whether you believe in the concept of stunting a fish's growth is irrelevant; the fact is that it happens.
If you base your maximum sizes on average sizes of fish that are kept in that type of environment, then right off the bat you are never giving them a chance to lead a healthy, happy life.
I suspect you may be basing your opinions on sizes of fish at the lfs's. Most of the fish you see at lfs's are not adults but juveniles. It is cost effective and good business sense for the person raising the fish to get one batch out to the store as soon as reasonably possible, so he/she can get on with the next batch. Thus more often than not, the fish stores receive juveniles from their suppliers, and this is what they put in their display tanks. If you are basing your estimates on what you see at the store, you are using juvenile specimens as an estimate of the full adult size.
I, for one, try to treat my pets with respect, compassion, and kindness. I will never knowingly put fish in a tank where they would not be comfortable as full-grown adults, because realistically, this will be their only home for the rest of their lives.
To find out the best possible estimate of full-grown adult fish, I consult references published by experienced hobbyists and well-respected sites. I do not consider these practices "silly", and think you would do well to treat the rest of us here with a little respect, as we do to you.
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I didn't see the insulting nature of another post. If forgoing a few extra fish by someone else's standards in order to make sure that your fish are happy is silly, then I will have to count myself silly. Like I said, I could see following the norm maybe, but preparing for the worst is the only option which I see if you follow this path. I wouldn't want a tank based upon the norm to become grossly overstocked or full of stunted and thusly dying fish. So-called silliness is my choice.
Childawg - thanks, as a statistician I think you understand better the point I was trying to make. At least some one here understands it
I am not saying ignore all the literature. But instead view it as a guide. If you plotted the adult size of a large population of fish, you would get some type of bell curve distribution. I am saying base stocking on the far larger middle portion of the bell curve, and not the extremes which is what RTR and Heady are advocating.
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RTR and Heady - Well, you obviously have one viewpoint, I and others have another. It appears we will never agree, so we should leave it at that.
However, I am not sure why both of you are upset at my post or opinion and have your shorts in an uproar. There was nothing disrespectful about it - and I certainly did not advocate abusing my fish. Just as you are entitled to your opinion, I and others and entitled to ours.
However, I am not sure why both of you are upset at my post or opinion and have your shorts in an uproar. There was nothing disrespectful about it - and I certainly did not advocate abusing my fish. Just as you are entitled to your opinion, I and others and entitled to ours.
Only6foot6,
I, too, work with statistics on a daily basis for my bread and butter. While there is indeed a bell curve for natural fish sizes, that curve by necessity must be extremely narrow, as Oriongirl pointed out. It would be a detriment to the fish to be far outside the norm of the average size for its group. That fish would likely be naturally selected out of the population through a lack of interested mates or through the more direct way, getting noticed more easily by a predator. Thus the natural size of each species is within rather tight boundaries. Even in an aquarium, the fish is genetically programmed by hundreds of thousands of years' worth of wild generations to reach a particular size which has been proven through natural selection to have the best chance of survival. Just because a specimen is taken from the wild one day and placed in an aquarium does not change this genetically programmed drive to reach a given size.
The sizes given by the literature are not maximum sizes but reasonable expectations of what the adult size of a given fish will be. I quote from Dr. Riehl and Hans Baensch from Baensch's Aquarium Atlas p.204: "[Fish] need a large tank with plenty of space for swimming. When you purchase a young fish you should know, in advance, the size it will attain as an adult."
It is simply a fact, not an opinion, that you can stunt a fish's growth by placing it in an environment where it is overcrowded or where it just does not have enough space to swim. If you use the juvenile's size, or the size of a stunted specimen, as your guide, you are setting your fish up to be in an unhappy and unhealthy situation as it tries to grow naturally but can't. Many fish prematurely die when they cannot reach their normal size in an aquarium. Others survive but cannot reach more than the size of a juvenile. Still others may actually reach their full size despite all the hardship it is up against, only to die later when their master still will not move them to an appropriately sized and stocked tank and the fish is poisoned by its own excrement in a space too small for it.
This is not a fate I would want for any of my pets because I care about them. I give my animals the best chance I can to reach their normal adult size in a comfortably sized aquarium that is not stocked to the hilt with other fish.
I, too, work with statistics on a daily basis for my bread and butter. While there is indeed a bell curve for natural fish sizes, that curve by necessity must be extremely narrow, as Oriongirl pointed out. It would be a detriment to the fish to be far outside the norm of the average size for its group. That fish would likely be naturally selected out of the population through a lack of interested mates or through the more direct way, getting noticed more easily by a predator. Thus the natural size of each species is within rather tight boundaries. Even in an aquarium, the fish is genetically programmed by hundreds of thousands of years' worth of wild generations to reach a particular size which has been proven through natural selection to have the best chance of survival. Just because a specimen is taken from the wild one day and placed in an aquarium does not change this genetically programmed drive to reach a given size.
The sizes given by the literature are not maximum sizes but reasonable expectations of what the adult size of a given fish will be. I quote from Dr. Riehl and Hans Baensch from Baensch's Aquarium Atlas p.204: "[Fish] need a large tank with plenty of space for swimming. When you purchase a young fish you should know, in advance, the size it will attain as an adult."
It is simply a fact, not an opinion, that you can stunt a fish's growth by placing it in an environment where it is overcrowded or where it just does not have enough space to swim. If you use the juvenile's size, or the size of a stunted specimen, as your guide, you are setting your fish up to be in an unhappy and unhealthy situation as it tries to grow naturally but can't. Many fish prematurely die when they cannot reach their normal size in an aquarium. Others survive but cannot reach more than the size of a juvenile. Still others may actually reach their full size despite all the hardship it is up against, only to die later when their master still will not move them to an appropriately sized and stocked tank and the fish is poisoned by its own excrement in a space too small for it.
This is not a fate I would want for any of my pets because I care about them. I give my animals the best chance I can to reach their normal adult size in a comfortably sized aquarium that is not stocked to the hilt with other fish.
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Heady - give it a break already. If I had said you are an idiot or called you some unprintable name, that would be an insult. However nothing I said could logically be viewed as insults by any objective person.
First, I never called you nor RTR silly - what I said was:
"Stocking based on the maximum size that even under pristine conditions very few fish will reach is extremely conservative and IMO silly."
"IMO, it is very silly to base stocking on what 1 out of a large number of fish may grow to in pristine conditions. "
Second, if you consider the use of the word "silly" to be an insult, then why did you choose to use that same "SILLY" word in a post much earlier than any of my responses. I quote:
from Heady 3/28/03 9:30am "Likewise it is IMO a little silly to overstock a tank with half-grown specimens and expect them to ever reach their adult size and/or be healthy and happy for life. "
I guess I should be upset because you were insulting me with the use of the word silly, huh?
Third, as far as missing or misstating my point - Yes, you missed it by a mile IMO. Is that an insult, well golly gee whiz I don't think so. Its an opinion I had based on your response which says:
By Heady "Would you keep an entire spawn of goldfish in a 10 gallon tank for their entire lives, just because their size at a month old would have fit the one inch of fish per gallon rule? No!"
Nowhere in any of my responses did I advocate such a thing. That is a COMPLETE misstatement or missing the point of what I wrote. What I suggested is to not expect all 5 yo-yo loaches you add to grow 5" each as you suggest - but rather go with the normal average adult length which is much lower - and that is a fact in the literature - I quote from Dawes Complete Encyclopedia of the Freshwater Aquarium
"Up to 4 1/2" reported but usually much smaller". Let me repeat that last piece "USUALLY MUCH SMALLER" - so why stock based on 5" as you suggest when the majority of fish reach a maximum length MUCH SMALLER ????????
Finally you suggest you were trying to have a logical discussion. Well so was I. Unfortunately, you and RTR had your mind set that your own point of view was correct and could not see or agree with the point I was trying to make. Thats fine, both of you are entitled to your own opinion and belief - but so am I. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make their remarks insults. Do you really expect everyone to agree with you on these forums????? That IMO would be quite silly indeed. Oops, I better add this after that last sentence:
Disclaimer - the use of the word silly in the last line of this post should in no way be interpreted to be an insult to Heady .
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Only6foot6 - I bet you never expected to get as many responses as you have. 
As I have said before, stocking your tank is more an art than a science. Many people have many different viewpoints. In the end, you have to decide for yourself what you think is best for your own fish. Whatever you choose to do, the fish may survive or even thrive, or they may not. There are many factors involved, so you need to decide for yourself based on the information you have about your ideals and your own intimate knowledge of your own tank. My goal is to provide my fish the best possible environment that I can, since my aquarium will the the only home they know for the rest of their lives. You have to think about what is important to you, having as many fish as you possibly can in your tank, or ensuring the fish you do have are as happy and healthy as you can make them. No one can make that decision for you. Regardless, I wish you good luck on whatever you choose to do.
Heady Out.
As I have said before, stocking your tank is more an art than a science. Many people have many different viewpoints. In the end, you have to decide for yourself what you think is best for your own fish. Whatever you choose to do, the fish may survive or even thrive, or they may not. There are many factors involved, so you need to decide for yourself based on the information you have about your ideals and your own intimate knowledge of your own tank. My goal is to provide my fish the best possible environment that I can, since my aquarium will the the only home they know for the rest of their lives. You have to think about what is important to you, having as many fish as you possibly can in your tank, or ensuring the fish you do have are as happy and healthy as you can make them. No one can make that decision for you. Regardless, I wish you good luck on whatever you choose to do. Heady Out.
