Lowering pH - Strange Problem

I agree with Dave, Lauren. One definite marker of a thriving fish is the ability to reproduce. I personally have bred angels and rams in tanks with ph of 7.6 and KH of 9, both of which are outside the normal parameters in the wild. I think a clean, stable tank is much more important than trying to match the conditions of the amazon. I'll probably get flamed from some of the discus keepers but I'm currently keeping discus in the same water conditions and they're growing like weeds.

Mark
 
I'm just pointing out that it isn't true that fish don't know PH. Hell, i've killed many a cadinal tetra before I started using RO.

the fact is that all species have a range of where they can survive/thrive. Some have a very narrow range, others have a wide range. I tried googling for ram's response curve to PH, but I couldn't find it. If a species isn't in their optimal conditions, usually the first thing to do is stop reprodosing, then growth, and then they die. You can't keep freshwater fish in a brackish environment because the salinity is outside of their optimal zone. I have had great luck with PH and hardness in my tanks over the past year, but as I said, my cardinal tetras dropped like flies in my hard water before I did something to fix it.
 
I know of none in Freshwater that have a narrow range. I know plenty of people that keep Discus in water with a pH of 7.6 or above and have very healthy very vibrant long lived fish. Most reputable Discus breeders will tell you that if you aren't trying to breed them, they can be kept in good clean water at a wide range of parrameters.

This is one of the longstanding myths of aquaria, and although many people believe and argue the myth, it is still not true. Take your ro Water add just enough Sodium biccarbonate to get your pH to 7.8 or 8.0 and test the solids. try that water with your tetras and see how they react. you'll find they are quite happy and will most likely breed in that water. Take the same RO water add 160 ppm calcium, and 100 ppm Mg and no carbonate, you'll have water at about 6.8-7.0, and your tetra's will not like it. Additionally you will have an unstable tank prone to pH swings and crashes. KH is the key to stability, Kh will bring pH up in direct correllation.

Please whatever you do do not take my word for it. research the chemistry, and run some tests. You'll find that fish cannot read pH and don't care.
dave
 
daveedka said:
I know of none in Freshwater that have a narrow range. I know plenty of people that keep Discus in water with a pH of 7.6 or above and have very healthy very vibrant long lived fish. Most reputable Discus breeders will tell you that if you aren't trying to breed them, they can be kept in good clean water at a wide range of parrameters.
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there you go, thank you for proving my point. As I said, some have wide bands, some have narrow bands. Fact is, you can't survive in 130 degree heat for very long, and some fish can't survive in really hard water.

You can talk all the chemistry you want, but try reading some biology or ecology texts about the subject.
 
Quote/Lauren-
there you go, thank you for proving my point. As I said, some have wide bands, some have narrow bands. Fact is, you can't survive in 130 degree heat for very long, and some fish can't survive in really hard water.
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Not exactly true.

pH-8.0 dH-19 Out of tap, 6 torquise discus, planted. They are happy and big.

Breeding pH-6.5 dH-5, 50 young so far.

Don't have a clue about kH never tested, so Dave is right(and RTR) -fish can't read pH.
And the lover pH for the Discus is for their glans to start developing the supstance for the larva(fish) to glue on the parents.

Sorry for the English(not English speaking).
 
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rondrin said:
From my research, the amazon species prefer acidic pH.
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As a newbie, I also try to do my research before buying fish, just like Ron did.

Most fish profile sites out there list at least:
Salinity (Fresh, Brackish, Salt)
Temperment (aggressive or peaceful)
Tank size
Temp
pH

Some also list:
KH
GH

Salinity, tank size, and temperature are easy to control, so it comes down to water chemistry.

I don't understand ALL the chemistry involved, but I get that pH, KH, GH, and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) are all somewhat related.

Aspiring the be a responsible fish keeper, exactly which parameters are most important? I'm talking about keeping fish, not breeding them.

The same question worded differently:
My tap water has certain parameters...how do I determine which fish are suitable for keeping in my tap water?

In the end, that's what it seems to boil down to...people try to adjust their pH because they want their fish to be comfortable and live a good, healthy life (good intentions).

If it's not pH, then what parameter is it that we need to be looking at in order to make our aquatic pets "happy"?
 
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adzigogov2001 said:
Quote/Lauren-
there you go, thank you for proving my point. As I said, some have wide bands, some have narrow bands. Fact is, you can't survive in 130 degree heat for very long, and some fish can't survive in really hard water.
-/
Not exactly true.

pH-8.0 dH-19 Out of tap, 6 torquise discus, planted. They are happy and big.

Breeding pH-6.5 dH-5, 50 young so far.

Don't have a clue about kH never tested, so Dave is right(and RTR) -fish can't read pH.
And the lover pH for the Discus is for their glans to start developing the supstance for the larva(fish) to glue on the parents.

Sorry for the English(not English speaking).
Click to expand...

The funny thing is that by proving me wrong, you are reinfocing what I say. Your discus only breed at 6.5ph and not 8.0ph becuase they are more suited for the 6.5ph, they are happier, so they reproduce. When they are outside of their comfort zone, the first thing they stop doing is reproducing. So you can have healthy, large discus, but if they are not reproducing, they are not in their comfort zone, thus, not in their optimal zone of survival.

Take ghost shrimp for example. They will live quite fine in freshwater, but they won't reproduce, because they aren't freshwater shrimp. But them in brackish, where they are more comfortable, and they start to breed.

You can have happy and healthy fish outside of their optimal zone, but they are still not in the water perameters they prefer and because of that, they act differently (ie don't breed)
 
What an extremely informative and confusing discussion... :clap:

It seems that everyone agrees that fish will only BREED under certain conditions.

If I understand right, daveedka is saying that it's "hardness" rather then pH that is important for breeding.

The point of contention seems to be whether it's o.k. to KEEP fish in water outside of their "optimal" conditions, as long as you're not planning on breeding them.

So for newbies like me, is it safe to keep fish in "non-optimal" conditions, or does this add stress and "discomfort"???
 
It is far better to keep fish in a stable environment than in one that is contrived as being similar to their natural environment. It is far easier to keep a stable tank if it closely matches your tap parrameters. that being said it is safer, easier, and better for your fish to adapt and keep them in water similar to your source rather than try to adjust your water to the fish.

Fish are adaptable animals, that can be acclimated to a wide range of conditions. When we talk about breeding please also remember that there are many species that simply won't breed in captivity regardless of water conditions. The propensity to breed aften has little to do with conditions or health of the fish. Breeding is also not always a sign of health or correct conditions. Many species will breed in any conditions, right up to the day they die as well.


Lauren, No matter how many time you repeat the myth, it is still a myth. pH does not matter. dissolved solids levels matter, and to a lesser extent Mineral profiles.

Discus breeders can breed discus any time they want in water with higher pH levels. they cannot breed discus in water with significant calcium or magnesium, or elevated solids. Please quit confusing HArd water with High pH water and soft water with low pH water. That is the point of this discussion. Dissolved solids are the true test of hardness, pH does not directly correlate to water hardness or solids levels. pH doesn't matter solids do.

In the wild there is a general correllation, in municiple water sources there often is not. My tap is ultrasoft, low TDs freshwater with a pH of 7.8. but with a pH of 7.8 it is not hard enough to grow plants. There would be no reason ever to want to lower the pH of that water

Not once have I claimed you cannot breed discus in high pH water. Since the pH really doesn't matter and can be manipulated across a wide range of hardness levels, there is no ideal or correct pH to worry about. There is however a range of mineral content and dissolved solids that matters for breeding these fish. aside from Breeding. Stability is the key. Since (As has been explained several times) A level of KH is required to maintain stability. 1 dKh will put the pH Up above 7.0 and 3 dKH will put it up to 7.4-7.8 range.
I have seen toomany tanks with OTS and ph levels below 5.0, and I have seen too many fish killed because someone tried to create water that wasn't feasable in an enclosed crowded system.

Dave
 
Yap what Daveedka sayed is true,
again my discus are breeding in ph8 and dh19 lets say every 25 days. But the eggs wouldn't develop properly.
I understand your point Lauren thet we should simulate the exact natural parameters of the water and I'm all for that.
But keeping it stable is simply imposible. The water I'm making with a ion(resin)exchange unit(dont know the English word) it comes out like this pH 4.5 dH 1, after just 10 minutes the numbers start climbing so in 12 hours they read ph 6.5 dh 5. To keep the last parameters, i change water every day(50%) because they keep riseing, that is in the breeding tank.

So that is not stable water and the work is imposible. Once I did a little test and left the water for 4 days(main tank), and it sayed ph 7.1 dh 9. after that I never fooled with the water in my main tank, so it has only tap water.

Every one needs to realize that I never tested for kH and TDS and i'm not expierenced with that.

But Daveedka is an Expert and I take his word for granted, if I joined the forum earlier I wouldn't end up spending lot of money for equipment now I never use.
 
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