Ack! Nem did it again with comments within quote text.
I agree with Nem in that I also believe our success to end this game with a win for the town centers on Wingnut.
It took some thinking but I realize now why I couldn't pinpoint where the problem was before. It's a difference in how I play.... there are some things I don't agree with and don't normally do myself. And it stands for reason that if I don't play that way, I don't generally think that way either when it comes to strategy.
Normally, I wouldn't play things the way the witches have done because I feel we are bound by a more "within the spirit of the rules" good sportsmanship type of code where a turn is obligated to help their new team win the game. And even though the game mod cautioned Wingnut about that too... I guess the witches had already based their game strategy solely on the "you can say anything you want in the game" standard of play which, of course, is also part of the rules.
The post I pulled before is where Wingnut planted the idea in the thread for us to turn a "known witch" to townie instead of burning them was done intentionally. Everyone in the game saw my reaction to Hammer agreeing with Tree that we should turn Wingnut. I freaked at that idea. You better believe I did.... and I hope you can see now why I got suspicious. This is too much like falling for that pocket mafia tactic all over again. My comment - OK. If I recall correctly, and I am happy to be corrected on this, you were however proposing a similar tactic with the turn spell you claim to have gotten. Now, we know you were not in the scum den with Wing, or at least we believe so because Wing said so, so when you reacted to the proposal made by Tree to work a turn, you were reacting as a townie as far as I can see.
This alone can be contrasted with your suggesting the same tactic yourself at a point later in the game. Its difficult to reconcile the two.
Unfortunately, I suspected Tree for suggesting it and pretty much accused him of trying to double-cross us. And, as Tree was an innocent instead of a witch, they naturally assumed I was scum. This is so stupid. I can't believe we got suckered in like that. I knew it was problemmatic. I should have explained more at the time so the town would know why I got worried. I should have fought against the idea harder than I did. I just couldn't see the whole picture yet. Even though I knew something was wrong I couldn't figure out what it was.
So I blamed Tree for making the suggestion because I thought that's where it came from.... I tried to warn Hammer by pointing that out.... and when no one on the town side wanted to hear that, I let it go. We went ahead and did it.
The thing about turning Wingnut like that is it had to be done by a non-communicating PR so everything was talked about publicly in the thread. In this format, the warlock's spell was intended to be used quietly and anonymously which makes it more random. More of a shot in the dark taken by someone wearing a blindfold. But the only way this idea would have worked for us would have been for townie to come up with the idea (instead of the scum team) and pull it on a confirmed scum player very fast......... without giving the other side advance warning we were going to do it.
In this case, however, not only did the witches know about it. They were the ones who suggested it to us!!!!
My comment - OK can you just point out the post where they suggested it to us. I'm a little pushed for time and my recollection as noted in my last post is that in fact it came from the townies.
So now, put yourself in the scumden from Day 1 for a moment. Someone on that team with a talent for strategy came up with the idea and shared it with the witches. Since they knew the game allowed for a possible turn, they worked out a plan in advance to defeat it before-hand just in case one of the witches got turned during the game. Once they had that chance to talk it over in the scumden, it didn't matter which witch we turned or when we turned them. My comment. Yes, it would be surprising if there was not talk in the scum den about the possible turn, especially when it was said in the thread that Wing would be turned. They must have discussed how they would be affected and how they would play in response.
Based on what I've seen Wingnut doing since their turn, that is exactly what I think they agreed to do.
When we turned Wingnut we did so to eliminate a witch by turning them into a pro-town player on our side instead. And we thought the witch-turned-innocent would comply. Sure enough that sounded like a great idea. But, as is clearly evident to us now...... what we got instead was double agent still working for the witches that they wanted us to have. Wingnut never had any intention of helping us win.
My comment. Wingnut has been fairly clear as regards what they would do as a turned witch. I am still a little put out that they didn't confirm I wasn't in the scum den with them whereas they did for you, but so be it. I've read Wingnut as mostly reluctantly playing along within the confines of what has happened in the game for them, i.e. not pro-active for the town but playing nonetheless as an innocent by not misleading the town.
Looking back at it all now, this isn't hard to figure out after all.
All they had to do was agree if one of them got turned....... to vote for a witch only after the town found one and someone had voted them already. And that is exactly how Wingnut has been doing this. That would confirm, yes... so-and-so is a witch... so the town would burn them. The scum team must have felt this was staying within the rules close enough that they could get away with it.
My comment. OK, this is what Wing Nut has done.
Then at the very end when we got to a point where all we had to do was kill off the last surviving witch to win the game, all the turned witch would have to do is confirm the wrong suspect to the town. We burn the wrong one, the game ends, and the mod announces... The Witches Have Won!
As I understand your idea it is that Wingnut and the witches agreed that they would pretend not to go so far as to mislead the town but at the crucial time, Wingnut would stop with this, and burn an innocent.
This sounds quite mad as well as your previous idea. Wing nut would have to work this misleading trick a number of times, if doing it only from the point when there was one remaining witch but a number of townies. That could never succeed. The townies would be onto Wing immediately after they sent an innocent to the stake. This does depend a little on exactly how many townies were left at the point where there was only one remaining witch. I'll have to think about that.
We still have 6 surviving players in this game. And based on the fact that Wingnut is trying to get me burned in particular, that tells me that when we burned Scoop last night.... Wingnut knows there is only one witch left... does not feel bound by the rules or any sense of fair play.... and will not help us find the last witch we need for a town win. So right after Scoop died, Wingnut went after someone they know isn't the last witch to make sure the scum team wins in the end.
IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR YOU RICKETS - do you thnk the scum can in fact with by doing this, as in, is it in fact theoretically possible ?
As soon as nightfall was over, Wingnut came after me. I suppose I was their best choice because I am suspected already by everyone still alive... and probably because I pissed them off more than any of the rest of you. Also, I might add that since I was the one who got the random spell (and that's a whole other can worms full of WIFOM questions all its own)...... when I do get burned next and don't turn out to be a witch after all... Wingnut can use the excuse pretending that they are trying to help us win... but tell us, "Oops, I'm so sorry... I just didn't believe Rickets was telling the truth."
No I don't see it like that. I have to run. back later.
Most of you are predisposed already to suspect me so how would you blame Wingnut for making the same mistake. Wingnut retains their confirmed innocent credibility and they help us to continue killing off fellow townies by mistake or whatever else it takes to protect the last remaining witch.
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I just put generic quote tags around it this time.
1. I can see why that's confusing. Yes, I got real suspicious about the plan to turn Wingnut. Thinking it originated with Tree made that worse because Tree and I go at each other in games alot anyway. The player using that alias right now could tell me the sky was blue and I've learned from past experience that I'd better go outside to check. They have faked me out with tricky tactics a few times before. After you get burned a few times trusting someone and having that backfire on you, you become wary of a player who likes doing that. So yes, some of that was personal stuff unrelated to the game.
The game related part though was worrisome too. I've seen the town get suckered into a similar "pocket mafia" scenario before too that ended badly for the town. Scum faked us out completely. Based on my game experience I have learned one very important lesson.... any time you have a witch/scum confirmed as such the best thing to do is kill it immediately. Mafia is like a game of chess and there are too many vets around who are good at thinking 2 or 3 moves ahead of you in terms of strategy and schemes.
That explains why I was so reluctant. Now, when I thought about our plan to turn Wingnut, I couldn't find any loophole in it that might hurt us. So I set my bad vibe feeling aside and agreed to do it. After giving it a lot of thought, I believed it was a great idea after all under the specific circumstances in this game.
Later when I was the one who got the random one-time spell... I didn't have a confirmed witch handy that I could aim it at. It was extremely dangerous for me to just pick someone based on a best guess. I could have picked wrong and hurt our chances real bad. Another option that I just tell everyone and comply with a majority vote who to use it on was risky too if our consensus was overly influenced by input from evils.
The only thing I felt confident about was that Wingnut had already been successfully turned by the warlock as we intended. I counted Wing as a confirmed townie who used to be a witch. So Wing would know first-hand who all the witches are. And I presumed (yeah, I know) that Wingnut was obligated to help us kill (or turn) their former teammates. So I came out with the spell to ask Wing to name a witch we could target with it.
Star was the one who talked me out of using it. The others who commented seemed to agree with that too. So I complied. I agreed it was too much of a risk and didn't use the spell.
2. Post 513. I'll find it and repost it again.
3. Good point. How would they not?
4. You seem to trust Wingnut to play fair a lot more than I do. I believe Wing is pro-town in number only, that their loyalty to the witches is stronger than it's supposed to be, and expect deliberate misdirection from Wingnut will turn out to be the witch team's end game strategy for the win.
5. Exactly. That's why I don't trust anything Wingnut tells us anymore.
6. It takes a manipulative vet with great skill to pull something like that off without taking any blame. The person using the Wingnut alias is definitely capability of doing it. (Again, that assessment is based on past game experience too with this player.)
Nem, Wingnut is already misleading us. I know that as fact, not speculation. We're not out of witches yet but they claim we are and accuses me of being a turn. No one else but me knows they are lying because no one knows yet if I'm innocent or not. I am already suspected and accused of this very thing. That's why Wingnut is doing this... they know it's easy to convince you/others to burn me.
Once they are proven wrong, do you think Wingnut is going to admit anything? Think they will say.. hahaha, I fooled you! No. All they have to do is shrug it off and say... wow, I'm sorry. I was mistaken.
I am talking about a player is very good and wiggling their way out of situations like that.
Answer to the important question part....
Absolutely yes. That's why I'm talking about this. I believe they planned to do this in the scumden, that this is why Wingnut suggested turning a witch in the first place, that we see signs of this taking place already, and that this has been their "end game" strategy to win the game if all else fails.... from the start.
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