Mafia 73: Werewolf Game!

[jbradt]

Checking in now that I'm awake to see what's been going on. I have to say I think you guys are off base about Kash; but that's just me. Looks like Zaffy went to the proctologist to find an argument... s'ok. It'll come around in the end, Zaff. It'll be either you or Labby tonight. Either is fine.

 

[Kashta]

I have a lot of reading (this morning's posts) to catch up on and I'll start doing that after making this post.

I saw earlier this morning that Zaffy posted some wildass claims trying to defend himself now that he's leading the votes. So I went back again to re-read the entire thread. While I am convinced that he is a wolf, I wanted to make sure I was being fair and objective about my accusation before responding, in case there was still a chance that I'm wrong about him. This is no time for us to make mistakes or overlook something in the thread that needs to be considered.

This is what I found during that review and some of my thoughts behind this at the time those posts were made. (Sorry folks, it's another long post.)

-----------

Starting out, Zaffy voted Pappy for skimming the rules or not... which was funny.

I took that as a joke -- not a serious vote, as did most everyone else. Then he posted again saying it's scummy, which I also attributed to him just having some fun in the opening stages of the game.

JM posted right after that, however, quoting Zaffy's vote post by saying, "er what?" That alone didn't tell us whether JM was humorously continuing Zaffy's joke or if JM was seriously questioning why Zaffy would just vote someone like that out of the blue.

Since JM went on later to make a huge fuss about people throwing out vote jokes, it's entirely possible that JM wasn't joking and he DID interpret Zaffy's vote as a REAL vote. ...which also explains why he got so bent out of shape early on when everyone else was still joking around. To me, that sounded like a simple misunderstanding on JM's part which later got blown out of proportion.

So, there we had JM taking exception to Zaffy joke-voting >> Pappy taking exception to JM making such a big deal out of nothing >> and Zaffy in a position now to just sit back and take shots at both Pappy and JM at the same time without any risk to himself. Zaffy worked hard at getting JM lynched in his posts, while keeping his silly joke-vote on Pappy the entire day.

I thought JM was overreacting (as were Pappy and Zaffy) because I could see where JM was coming from if he'd simply misread the intent behind Zaffy placing that vote. His behavior was easy to understand without adding on some devious little twist to his motivation. I still held JM on my list as a possible suspect at the time, however, (along with Pappy and Zaffy) because he did overreact and that's always a warning sign... but I also still needed to see something more substantial than that to say he was scum. With this unresolved, I questioned the motives behind what others were doing in the thread.

My attention, therefore, moved more toward what both Pappy and Zaffy were doing. I tried to determine what they were trying to accomplish with their case against JM. Both were working quite hard against JM. That made me suspect there was a scummy agenda on their part.... either they were both scum working together.... or one was innocent and the other was a wolf. I couldn't tell which. Or were they both possibly innocent? I questioned that as well. I just couldn't see them both heading off in that direction so hard over such a small issue without there being a scummy basis behind it somewhere. The only problem was trying to decide which seemed scummier to me than the other, that still being just the first day. We didn't have enough to go on yet for me to decide guilt/innocence either way.

So here was the issue: It appeared that Pappy could be evil and simply took advantage of JM's screw up to help the town lynch an innocent on Day 1. It also appeared that Zaffy was playing 2 innocents (Pappy and JM) against each other...... because.... Zaffy continued to push JM as suspicious (while in agreement with Pappy) and, at the same time, continued to point suspicion at Pappy (for doing the exact same thing Zaffy was doing himself). That was where my concern lay on Day 1 and still does today.

When someone plays both sides against the middle like Zaffy was doing, it's a totally scummy way to play this game. IMO, we would be stupid to NOT question Zaffy's role.

At that time, of course, I didn't know yet that Pappy was innocent... neither did anyone else except the werewolves. I also didn't know whether Zaffy was innocent or evil. But simply comparing what Zaffy was saying to what Zaffy was doing... it didn't add up. Zaffy continued pointing at both JM and Pappy at the same time as being scum.

Now look at how the votes fell early that day.

Jpappy - Zaffy (15)
Dag - Kashta (27)
Kashta - Wizard (89)
Jm - Jpappy (107) Wizard (127) User (146) Piranha (163)

The first 3 votes were all made as a joke. And all 4 votes on JM were real votes.

Who were the players driving that train which formed so fast on JM? Pappy and Zaffy.

Pappy - Lead the votes against JM and would naturally take the blame should JM turn out innocent. It appears to me that Pappy was okay with that. Pappy ended up dying and we know (now) that he truly believed JM was scum. Pappy didn't protect himself at the same time or cover his *** at all in case he was wrong.... that's what the scum team does.

Zaffy - Had just as much to do with JM being voted as Pappy did. This thread contains numerous posts authored by Zaffy as evidence of this fact. Zaffy was also pushing JM just as hard as Pappy did..... which is why I questioned Zaffy about his actions and his motives. (Those posts I made later where Zaffy refused to respond.) But would Zaffy later be held responsible if JM flipped innocent? No. Zaffy was in a totally safe position himself. It made no difference to Zaffy which one died as demonstrated by the way he posted one way and voted another.

Zaffy spent that entire day talking out of both sides of his face. I find that extremely suspicious. Yet today, the man has the absolute gall to claim he was concerned that Pappy was being overzealous. Give me a break, Zaffy.... and show me any basis for that bogus claim in this thread.

** Where in the thread that first day did you question Pappy about this?

** Where did you state your case against Pappy?

** You posted quite a LOT to get JM lynched... but where are all the posts you made while Pappy was still alive where you backed off on the case you and he had both made against JM?

** Where did you even entertain the possibility in your posts that JM might be innocent and Pappy was trying to hang him unfairly?

I've been through the whole thread again and there's nothing that backs up what you are trying to convince us of today.

If you are innocent and believed Pappy was evil.....

** Why did you keep working so hard to get Pappy's victim (JM) killed that day?

** Wouldn't you have wondered if JM was being unfairly targeted and might then be innocent? If so, then where did you post anything about that?

If you are innocent and believed both Pappy and JM were evil.....

** Where in the thread that day did you say so?

** Where did you accuse them of fabricating the whole thing just to distance themselves from each other?

You did nothing of the sort at the time any of this was happening, Zaffy. That tells me that the claims you are making today, after the fact, are all lies.

Let's move on to their actual posts.....

Post #107.

I vote to lynch Jm

It has nothing to do with FF being the mod. Pretty much every game I have ever played (which, sadly, is a lot) has started out like this. We aren't even 24 hours into the first day and you're concerned that people aren't taking this seriously?

That is where Pappy took a solid position against JM and voted him.

Post #108 (immediately following Pappy's vote).

I don't know if I like it or not... It's awfully soon for a rational vote. But I was thinking along the same lines.

As I stated earlier, a prime example where Zaffy talked out both sides of his face.

Post # 151.

Joke votingis a constant in these games. every day 1 i've seen is rampant with them. i dont blame you for being suspicious of them because they are a great way for scum to hide. what i find suspicious is that you've not seen joke votes very much before.

do you seriously think that 3 of the 4 votes so far are scum?

Posted on mobile.aquariacentral.com

With Pappy already voting JM, Zaffy encouraged further suspicion and continued questioning JM. Zaffy did not back off on JM at all.

Post # 152 (immediately following).

Jm, don't play that card...wanting to find ww's and digging up actual scum are two completely different things. Until the latter is proven your words mean nothing.

So basically you're now just going to OMGUS me? What do you have on me other than questioning you at this point? Or is it because I suddenly became serious despite the fact that is what you want people to do?

Pappy questioned JM about the very same post Zaffy had just responded to.

Post #153.

JMs taking it seriously is suspicious only because the concept of joke votes is so new to him. i didnt like that jpappy was thinking what i was thinking.

how suspicious is that?

Posted on mobile.aquariacentral.com

Then Zaffy turned against Pappy who had just agreed with his position regarding JM and called that suspicious.

This is what I meant by saying Zaffy was playing both sides against each other at the same time.

Later on in the thread: Pappy checked previous games and had just posted that there were games that included joke votes on Day 1. This was Zaffy's response:

Post #224.

Jpap says he even found where JM participated in joke voting

Why would Jpap go this out of his way to nail JM on day 1? I'm feeling like keeping my vote where it is at this point.

This is the only post from Zaffy in the entire thread where he suggested he might keep his vote on Pappy. An arbitrary comment phrased as a speculative question. Even then, Zaffy didn't bother to explain the rationale behind that. All Zaffy did was question Pappy for checking his facts.

** From that point on, Zaffy, where did you challenge Pappy at all?

** If you honestly believed Pappy had taken the case (you helped him build).. too far, where did you ever try to defend JM?

** And, finally, in all the times I asked you to explain the contradictions between your actions and your posts, where did you explain that?

........You didn't, Zaffy.

There is nothing in this thread that supports the position you now pretend existed before nightfall came and went and before we started voting against you.

There is no evidence here to prove Zaffy's case now that he needs to defend himself. Based on his Day 1 posts in this thread, the claims Zaffy is making about this today are lies.

 

[user_name]

Not at all. i'm just stating that the precedent is set. the fact that i will change my vote to save myself isn't dependant on my role.

it's a good try at twisting my words, and attempting to associate them with another player though. i believe that to be the goal of the scum team in this game. i think you are kashtas teammate.

Posted on mobile.aquariacentral.com

and lgs.

 

[user_name]

hey guys, was looking for a quick vote count? Thanks!

 

[rich311k]

and lgs.

You lost me?

 

[rich311k]

You know what, from scratch:

Vote Count

Rich(1):Lab_Rat

Lab_Rat(3):JB,Rich,LG

Zaffy(4):Kashta, Lady G, Taysius, JM, Pirahna

Pirahna(0):User_name

Kashta(1): Zaffy

Lady G(1): User_name

People yet to vote: Chill, Dag, Rocker

Nightfall at 9pm EST, tonight.

It was posted a whole ten posts ago, UN.

 

[rich311k]

It was posted a whole ten posts ago, UN.

Dag voted LR. since then.

 

[Chill]

Okay I'm out of here soon and don't know how much time I'll have to get back in later. So I'm going to outline my concerns. Kash the premise is Zaffy hid behind a joke vote but then drew attention to it by attacking someone who did the same thing thereby putting his own neck in the noose? Is he a moron? Maybe. I've underestimated the limits of people's stupidity before. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me though.

........
Interesting questions, Zaffy. But again..... irrelevant.

You aren't under suspicion today because we still believe you were aligned with Pappy. Jpappy is dead now, remember? And we know he was innocent. What you've gone back to dredge up now in your own defense has nothing to do with your alignment with Lab Rat.... and it's that connection with her (not Pappy) that has brought you up for lynching this nightfall.

You did come up with a convincing argument... but it's to dispute the entirely wrong allegation.

Silly werewolf.

Now at this point it seems the only relevant information is that he has a connection with LR? Which is evidenced by her saying he dropped on her list. Not drooped off but dropped on. Is it a tell? could be but it's weak for the level of certainity I'm witnessing. Yes you guys know their play better than me and maybe I'm missing the boat I'll concede that.

 

[Chill]

I was wrong last game when I found you suspicious for going after Ice so hard so I'm second guessing myself this game when I'm getting the same feeling but I definitely have a bad feeling.

You were liked a guided missle with built in scum detection last game and if your right this game then you're just scary good. Which leaves me wondering why the wolves didn't take you out last night.

 

[Chill]

Sorry liked = like and I realize there's no question there. Did you look at Wiz's posts to see if there was some reason they would pass over you to get to him? I'm really not disrespecting Wiz I'm sure he's a good player but your instincts last game would have made you my target this time around if I was a wolf so I can't help thinking were missing something in Wiz's posts.