Mafia #98: The Grinch Returns -- The Play

[Lady G]

FF that is completely false and you twisted what I said.

I was between Dun and 2H and had legitimate reasons. 2H for voting Rich because he is "unlynchable" and Dun for appearing to try to put you in the spotlight. The only gut feel was that I felt 2H was just a bit scummier at the time. I never voted just because of a gut feel.

What do you mean by UN is playing a "good game"? What makes you think LG is playing townie?

LOL, guess I didn't have to look back to find out Pap had already answered that one, so FF it was NOT just a gut feel,

 

[the wizard]

Okay G, post 241 is your first post yesterday morning. As I said the time stamps I get are pacific, it was made at 8:36 am. From then until 11:56 am, you made 12 posts. 2 of those posts had nothing to do with Dun. 2 were about Dun but had nothing to do with him saving himself. 6 were directed at Dun specifically about him saving himself. 1 was a response to JP about Dun saving himself and 1 agreeing with Rich's comment that people go both ways on the subject of saving themselves.

To me, that means you spent the morning hammering Dun about saving his bacon. If this is not good enough to back up what I said, I can pull all of your posts, but would rather not have a post that would rival an encyclopedia just to bring all your posts together.

 

[Lady G]

No, but there is a limit... You have posted almost nothing of value this entire game, and that is concerning. Even now, day 3, you have made little imput. Just how busy are you?



I think that UN is playing a well balanced and well thought out game. I dunno, gut feeling more so then anything else, which is why it's not actually a reason to vote her. Those were, I think, in the "idle thought" section of the post, so there isn't anything backing them up except sudden thoughts on it (and sometimes that do prove correct). So, you don't have anything to say about Dawg? Interesting...

Did you just really call someone else out for not posting much?
The next part just confuses me...you have a "gut feeling" I am innocent, but that isn't a reason to vote me? I assume anyway that part was about me and not UN since you said "her"?

I am here and will answer this post in parts. I will start with the easiest and move on to the most time consuming.

How do I feel about Kashta? Kashta hasn't posted enough for me to think one way or another about her role. This is a tough question for me to answer as I have first hand knowledge about how hectic it is here and what is going on. I think I would prefer to defer to Kashta to answer any questions you have for her rather than make answers or excuses for her.

I wasn't asking you to answer for Kash or make excuses for her, I asked you opinion of her...why would you think I wanted you to answer anything for her?

 

[Lady G]

Okay G, post 241 is your first post yesterday morning. As I said the time stamps I get are pacific, it was made at 8:36 am. From then until 11:56 am, you made 12 posts. 2 of those posts had nothing to do with Dun. 2 were about Dun but had nothing to do with him saving himself. 6 were directed at Dun specifically about him saving himself. 1 was a response to JP about Dun saving himself and 1 agreeing with Rich's comment that people go both ways on the subject of saving themselves.

To me, that means you spent the morning hammering Dun about saving his bacon. If this is not good enough to back up what I said, I can pull all of your posts, but would rather not have a post that would rival an encyclopedia just to bring all your posts together.

No Wizard you are wrong, and trying to make it look like something it was not. Yep, I posted about it Dun asked why it would be a bad thing, I answered him...I think maybe you better start pulling posts because you are NOT being up and up about it

 

[jpappy789]

Ah didn't notice the "her"...assumed you were still talking about UN then. FF, here are my revised questions...

Why would having a gut feel about LG being townie be a reason NOT to vote for her?

How can you say UN is having a good game but then call him scum? If I'm not scum (which your reason is totally incorrect) then would you still suspect UN?

Why isn't Kash on your list when you said you were tempted to vote for her?

Do you have anything concrete on anyone?

 

[Kashta]

Kash, I know you answered all questions about this vote/post. I don't have a question so much as a comment. This entire post has that "covering your butt" feel to it, weighing all options (which yes is good to do) but the way you are so "detailed" about every thought in this gives it a eery feeling to me, more like which will I get questioned the least for voting.

Again, over detailed as to your "thought process", you were sure to cover each and every angel.


Now, this post makes me feel a bit better...explained, to the point and not overly "covering my butt", but can you explain a bit how 2H and UN were pretty much the same to you?
This was right above the post you pulled of Dawgs, and I'm thinking it may be the one you were thinking of. He voted UN, but added FF with a reason to "watch him" more or less.


With all the time it took you to make that very well thought out post about your vote, I wish you could of been more to the point like with the response to Pap, so we could of maybe got some actual thoughts from you on other players.

Lady G, I have to disagree. You are familiar with my game well enough regardless of my role to already know how systematic I am about everything. When I don't have a suspect, can't find anything solid enough that points to an actual suspect, and don't have the slightest idea yet who is being scummy but still have to vote somebody... I'm going to sit there considering one aspect after another, after another until I can figure out a best guess. Everyone in this game already knows that about me. Had I just glossed over the numerous questions raised with another direct/succinct comment, it would only have invited further questions to rehash the same thing over again.

Frankly, I felt my original post was pretty straightforward and to-the-point as it was. I don't understand why 3 different players couldn't follow what I posted to begin with. I made the vote, shared my thoughts about it, and provided my reason for voting the way I did. That was it. What I posted with my vote wasn't all that hard to understand, IMO.

 

[the wizard]

G, between 11:56 and night fall you made 15 more posts. Of those posts only 4 did not have anything to do with Dun.

Do I now need to go through and count all of JP's posts to show that I am not singling you out because he actually was questioning other people where as, as it appears to me, you just tried to look like you weren't just trying to railroad down out of town?

 

[Lady G]

Here ya go.....

i think we really need to start looking at who voted 2h and why at this point. let's see...

going by the rules, DD being hit would suggest she was the non-communicating elf and i had no choice but to switch my vote to save me own behind last minute. i'm thinking one way or another, someone who voted UN had to know they were voting someone who wasn't communicating scum. ice tied up the votes, wiz tied up the votes, but pappy happened to vote to put 2h in the lead. does this indicate anything? i dunno... but it's worthy of a look in my book.

As you can see, Dun brought up the "saving my own butt" He posted this as I was making the next post here.....

Going back and bringing the vote counts and how it played out, I know others have "said" what happened, but without actually seeing it...it's hard to know if they are correct.

5pm, 3 hours before nightfall we have ALL single votes...


Then Dun, Dawg and Ice all vote, and form the three way tie...

With an hour and a half left to go, Kash comes in and breaks the tie giving UN the lead.


Pap votes 2H bringing a tie to 2H and UN, then Rich moves to cause another three way


Half our left till nightfall and still a 3 way..


11 minutes left UN, moves his vote tie it up on Dun and 2H and removes himself from the 3way.


Dun moves his vote to 2H saving himself and getting 2H lynched.

UN and Dun both moved to save themselves from the look of it, which of course leaves the question why not if innocent let the tie go and take your chance, or did they REALLY think the person they switched to was evil[/QUOTE]
I had pulled all the votes/vote changes..Even though Wiz did try to say I pulled DUN's day one vote, which is obviously NOT true.

Well, YOU voted UN before you "saved" yourself...did YOU know he was non-communicating, also how does anyone know he was "non=communicating"?

After I made the post I saw his post before mine to which he said we needed to look into those who voted UN, because someone KNEW he was non-communicating so this was my response..

One more question for you Dun....before you moved your vote to 2H, did you feel he was evil or was it a move ONLY to save yourself?

THEN I asked him if he had suspicions on 2H before he switched his vote

please explain.

as i stated before... only to save myself. we need as many innocents as possible per the rules. not knowing anyone's role, i can't assume anyone i'm tied with for a lynch is innocent and willing to save the town.

He then asked me this

That is what I have a problem with, if you really didn't see 2H as scum why move to him, there are many playing anymore that really don't see the problem, but no one besides you (if your innocent) knows your role...by moving to someone you do not see as scum, just to save yourself, leaves doubt and questions of your true reason to "save" yourself

To which I answered with the way I see these kind of things..

so... if the opposition happens to be one way or the other, i should allow myself to be lynched on a coin toss? explain how this makes any sense, please.

Then Dun asked me this

You don't know if you would of won the coin toss or not there was a 50/50 chance you would not of been lynched. To me, unless you really think the other person is scum, it is scummy to move to them...yes, if you loose you are lynched and the town learns your role, but they can also learn from your lynch. If you save yourself, just to save yourself we are left with nothing to learn except you may of saved yourself because you are evil and wanted a innocent gone. Of course this is the way I see it, and pretty much use to be the way others saw it too nowadays, it seems self preservation outweighs everything though, so others may not see it the same. Had you not moved and 2H had come up with the lynch still and shown innocent, there would be little question in my mind on what your role is (innocent) because I highly doubt a evil will let them self go down like that.

To which I answered.
THIS ended it, now does this really look like I spend ALL morning DRILLING him about it...I don't think so

 

[the wizard]

No Wizard you are wrong, and trying to make it look like something it was not. Yep, I posted about it Dun asked why it would be a bad thing, I answered him...I think maybe you better start pulling posts because you are NOT being up and up about it

You want it? You got it.

 

[the wizard]

It say's right there in the posts you pulled he wasn't going to be around, because he would be working...yes I was mistaken of the timing he said it.

So IMO, this would explain his absence...could he of got on sometime in between, I have no idea but I am taking his word for it at this point.

I'm not sure you were reading to much into it Wizard, I agree with you. Of course I have no idea if it is right, it's hard to try and figure things out on a day one vote but when it is in a 3 way tie, and continues between the same three over and over it does tend to make you wonder.

Whew, boy...do I feel your pain there!!


I'm not sure they wouldn't benefit from it, the confusion factor sure is a nice "benefit" and also there is always the possibility one of the three has a important role to them.

Going back and bringing the vote counts and how it played out, I know others have "said" what happened, but without actually seeing it...it's hard to know if they are correct.

5pm, 3 hours before nightfall we have ALL single votes...


Then Dun, Dawg and Ice all vote, and form the three way tie...

With an hour and a half left to go, Kash comes in and breaks the tie giving UN the lead.


Pap votes 2H bringing a tie to 2H and UN, then Rich moves to cause another three way


Half our left till nightfall and still a 3 way..


11 minutes left UN, moves his vote tie it up on Dun and 2H and removes himself from the 3way.


Dun moves his vote to 2H saving himself and getting 2H lynched.

UN and Dun both moved to save themselves from the look of it, which of course leaves the question why not if innocent let the tie go and take your chance, or did they REALLY think the person they switched to was evil[/QUOTE]

Well, YOU voted UN before you "saved" yourself...did YOU know he was non-communicating, also how does anyone know he was "non=communicating"?

I need to clarify my wording there...you said someone voting UN had to of known they were voting non-communicating scum, you say this like you know he is NOT communicating, how exactly do you know that? His role has not been revealed as of right now, so only the evil would actually know if he was communicating with them or not right?

One more question for you Dun....before you moved your vote to 2H, did you feel he was evil or was it a move ONLY to save yourself?

It matters because unless your evil, you have no idea who is innocent, aside from yourself

That is what I have a problem with, if you really didn't see 2H as scum why move to him, there are many playing anymore that really don't see the problem, but no one besides you (if your innocent) knows your role...by moving to someone you do not see as scum, just to save yourself, leaves doubt and questions of your true reason to "save" yourself

You don't know if you would of won the coin toss or not there was a 50/50 chance you would not of been lynched. To me, unless you really think the other person is scum, it is scummy to move to them...yes, if you loose you are lynched and the town learns your role, but they can also learn from your lynch. If you save yourself, just to save yourself we are left with nothing to learn except you may of saved yourself because you are evil and wanted a innocent gone. Of course this is the way I see it, and pretty much use to be the way others saw it too nowadays, it seems self preservation outweighs everything though, so others may not see it the same. Had you not moved and 2H had come up with the lynch still and shown innocent, there would be little question in my mind on what your role is (innocent) because I highly doubt a evil will let them self go down like that.

Yes, I understand the point from the individual's view...I get that. And yes this is a numbers game, but in saving yourself (when innocent)...it leaves so much doubt and questions of your actual motive behind it, in others minds that you very well may of brought on your own death sentence and in turn ended up with the town taking out 2 innocents (the one you saved yourself from , then yourself) so it isn't so helpful.

Agreed

I see what you are saying Pap, but I'm not willing to rule out they had something to do with the outcome, or that one of their own wasn't on the chopping block and they had to give in to some movement to save that person. I also agree they didn't key in on any roles, especially since they took one of there own :grinyes:!!

I know that also, which is why before his latest posting I really didn't say much about it. After what he was posting though, that is just another nich that has me wondering.

All of your posts from 8:36 t0 11:56. You will need to go to the individual posts to see that the ones where you respond to others are still about Dun having to do with switching to save himself.