Question - would it make sense to utilize a turf scrubber to remove non-organin N and P and still keep a skimmer to remove organic N and P as well as other DOCs?
Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, part 1-4
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
Sure. Skimmers are good at removing organics like excess food. But research is showing that skimmers don't remove much DOC...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
"In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the [skimmer] is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so ... Clearly the skimmer is doing something, given the copious residue accumulated in the collection cup at the end of the week. Perhaps, however, the residue removed by the skimmer is only a rather small, even inconsequential, portion of the entire TOC load that develops in the aquarium water over the course of a week."
The Power Of Light, another example:
Reader "varga" on the RS site just did a cleaning and sent in these pics; here is before the cleaning... it looks like the screen has an even coverage all across it:
But here is after:
Notice that the center area has a tougher, stiffer algae that holds on stronger because it is made up of less water and more fibers (i.e., more N and P, less H20). Now why do you think that the stronger algae formed in the middle of the screen? Here's why:
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Yes, because of the lights. The screen may look evenly covered in light when you look at it, but your eyes can't tell the high power areas from the low power areas. Also, when you double the distance of the light, you would think the power of the light would be reduced to one-half; but it's actually reduced to ONE FOURTH of what it was. So when optimizing your design, you want the lights as close to the screen as possilbe, all the way across the screen.
Reader "varga" on the RS site just did a cleaning and sent in these pics; here is before the cleaning... it looks like the screen has an even coverage all across it:
But here is after:
Notice that the center area has a tougher, stiffer algae that holds on stronger because it is made up of less water and more fibers (i.e., more N and P, less H20). Now why do you think that the stronger algae formed in the middle of the screen? Here's why:
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Yes, because of the lights. The screen may look evenly covered in light when you look at it, but your eyes can't tell the high power areas from the low power areas. Also, when you double the distance of the light, you would think the power of the light would be reduced to one-half; but it's actually reduced to ONE FOURTH of what it was. So when optimizing your design, you want the lights as close to the screen as possilbe, all the way across the screen.
Many folks asked for pics of the jski711 no-skimmer tank whose test results I already posted, so here they are along with an update he posted:
"Well first i'll start by giving you a little background of my tank. its been up for 2 years now and am running t5 lighting. in the past i have had algae issues and phosphates tested above .1 from overfeeding. (i'm trying to fatten up my clowns and hopefully get them spawning). i've also got a 15g tank plumbed into my system that has a pair of mandarins in it which i am also trying to get spawning. i had a sick mandarin and dosed my tank with Maracyn to try and save him. after dosing this for a week i was unable to turn my skimmer on because it would just overflow from the medicine. after doing numerous water changes and about a month later i still was unable to turn it back on, thats when i saw [the scrubber] thread. I also had to turn off my calcium reactor because the co2 was dropping my ph too low; the bubbles from the skimmer were really helping me keep my ph up but with my skimmer not running, it had to be turned off. thats when i decided to give [the scrubber] a try. i purchased a pre grown screen from inland and off i went. since adding the "scrubber" i have noticed a major increase in ph which allowed me to turn my calcium reactor back on and get things stable again. the reactor has only been back on for about 2 weeks now and im "re dialing" it in. my ph fluctuates between 7.8 at night and 8.0 during the day. I have over 30 different types of sps in my tank, just did a quick count, and i have noticed no ill side effects at all. i have also been overfeeding a ton, especially to my mandarins! i have also noticed that the green film of algae i would get on the glass every few days has gone. I don't even remember the last time i scraped it, although in the pics you will see it needs to be done soon cause i have a ton of coraline algae on it. So IMO this "scrubber" has done wonders for me. I have been skimmerless for over 3 months now and still do my normal water changes, sometimes i do go 2 weeks but normally every weekend i do one. the turf that was on the screen from inland is still there but it doesnt seem to be spreading but not receding either. below are some pictures from today, they were just quick shots so sorry if they are blurry but you will see the colors i've got are great and like i said earlier i have had NO ill side effects at all."
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"Well first i'll start by giving you a little background of my tank. its been up for 2 years now and am running t5 lighting. in the past i have had algae issues and phosphates tested above .1 from overfeeding. (i'm trying to fatten up my clowns and hopefully get them spawning). i've also got a 15g tank plumbed into my system that has a pair of mandarins in it which i am also trying to get spawning. i had a sick mandarin and dosed my tank with Maracyn to try and save him. after dosing this for a week i was unable to turn my skimmer on because it would just overflow from the medicine. after doing numerous water changes and about a month later i still was unable to turn it back on, thats when i saw [the scrubber] thread. I also had to turn off my calcium reactor because the co2 was dropping my ph too low; the bubbles from the skimmer were really helping me keep my ph up but with my skimmer not running, it had to be turned off. thats when i decided to give [the scrubber] a try. i purchased a pre grown screen from inland and off i went. since adding the "scrubber" i have noticed a major increase in ph which allowed me to turn my calcium reactor back on and get things stable again. the reactor has only been back on for about 2 weeks now and im "re dialing" it in. my ph fluctuates between 7.8 at night and 8.0 during the day. I have over 30 different types of sps in my tank, just did a quick count, and i have noticed no ill side effects at all. i have also been overfeeding a ton, especially to my mandarins! i have also noticed that the green film of algae i would get on the glass every few days has gone. I don't even remember the last time i scraped it, although in the pics you will see it needs to be done soon cause i have a ton of coraline algae on it. So IMO this "scrubber" has done wonders for me. I have been skimmerless for over 3 months now and still do my normal water changes, sometimes i do go 2 weeks but normally every weekend i do one. the turf that was on the screen from inland is still there but it doesnt seem to be spreading but not receding either. below are some pictures from today, they were just quick shots so sorry if they are blurry but you will see the colors i've got are great and like i said earlier i have had NO ill side effects at all."
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Growth Sequence of New Acrylic Screen
The new acrylic scrubber is up and kicking. These pics were taken while the original bucket was still operating, so the growth is slower than it would have been otherwise. I'm running 3000K on one side, and 6500K on the other, as a test. It probably won't make much difference until the holes in the screen are sealed off, but here are the daily pics. The T5 light on the front has been removed so you can see the screen:
Day 1
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay01.jpg
Day 2
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay02.jpg
Day 3
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay03.jpg
Day 4
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay04.jpg
Day 5
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay05.jpg
Day 6
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay06.jpg
Day 7
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay07.jpg
Day 8
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay08.jpg
Day 9
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay09.jpg
Day 10
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay10.jpg
Day 11 (a huge growth increase):
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11.jpg
Notice that it takes several days before you can see any growth at all. And yes, I did seed the screen. Going back one day to Day 10, here are some closeups:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup1Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup2Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup3Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup4Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup5Day10.jpg
And here is a closeup from Day 11:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11closeup.jpg
And what it looks like out of the stand. Note the algae coming out of drain; it was almost 2 feet long before I pulled it out for this pic:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11heldup.jpg
Here's the growth on the 3000K side:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11out3000K.jpg
And the 6500K side:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11out6500K.jpg
Instead of following the rule of cleaning only one side at a time, I had to do both in order to measure the algae of the 3000K side versus the 6500K side. Here is what was pulled off, like pulling a rope:
Here are the algae amounts removed, after a cleaning:
And here's the screen after cleaning; this is why you don't clean both sides, becuase it leaves left nothing on the screen for filtering:
A few notes:
o The screen is only 1.5 inches from the acrylic wall, and thus some water does get on the wall. But this unit is currently not setup for airflow with a fan, and it has a lid, so the water never gets a chance to evaporate. As a result very little saltcreep forms. I think I wiped it twice during the 11 days; however it did not do anything, just redistributed the droplets. On day 11 there was a small amount of creep; when I pulled the screen out I just reached in an splashed some water on it and it came off.
o There was a great increase in algae between day 10 and 11. I've seen this many times: once the hair algae gets to a certain point, the next day it covers everything.
o When the screen get covered, algae start flowing down the scrubber and out the drain. Not a little, but a lot. It easily reached the botton of the sump 18" below. I just grabbed it and pulled it off. This might be a way to feed tangs, if the unit were placed on the hood of the tank.
The new acrylic scrubber is up and kicking. These pics were taken while the original bucket was still operating, so the growth is slower than it would have been otherwise. I'm running 3000K on one side, and 6500K on the other, as a test. It probably won't make much difference until the holes in the screen are sealed off, but here are the daily pics. The T5 light on the front has been removed so you can see the screen:
Day 1
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay01.jpg
Day 2
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay02.jpg
Day 3
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay03.jpg
Day 4
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay04.jpg
Day 5
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay05.jpg
Day 6
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay06.jpg
Day 7
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay07.jpg
Day 8
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay08.jpg
Day 9
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay09.jpg
Day 10
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay10.jpg
Day 11 (a huge growth increase):
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11.jpg
Notice that it takes several days before you can see any growth at all. And yes, I did seed the screen. Going back one day to Day 10, here are some closeups:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup1Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup2Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup3Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup4Day10.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicCloseup5Day10.jpg
And here is a closeup from Day 11:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11closeup.jpg
And what it looks like out of the stand. Note the algae coming out of drain; it was almost 2 feet long before I pulled it out for this pic:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11heldup.jpg
Here's the growth on the 3000K side:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11out3000K.jpg
And the 6500K side:
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11out6500K.jpg
Instead of following the rule of cleaning only one side at a time, I had to do both in order to measure the algae of the 3000K side versus the 6500K side. Here is what was pulled off, like pulling a rope:
Here are the algae amounts removed, after a cleaning:
And here's the screen after cleaning; this is why you don't clean both sides, becuase it leaves left nothing on the screen for filtering:
A few notes:
o The screen is only 1.5 inches from the acrylic wall, and thus some water does get on the wall. But this unit is currently not setup for airflow with a fan, and it has a lid, so the water never gets a chance to evaporate. As a result very little saltcreep forms. I think I wiped it twice during the 11 days; however it did not do anything, just redistributed the droplets. On day 11 there was a small amount of creep; when I pulled the screen out I just reached in an splashed some water on it and it came off.
o There was a great increase in algae between day 10 and 11. I've seen this many times: once the hair algae gets to a certain point, the next day it covers everything.
o When the screen get covered, algae start flowing down the scrubber and out the drain. Not a little, but a lot. It easily reached the botton of the sump 18" below. I just grabbed it and pulled it off. This might be a way to feed tangs, if the unit were placed on the hood of the tank.
Reminder Of The Day: Flow...
The basic rule of thumb for flow for a standard pipe slot is 35 gph (US gallons per hour) (140 liters per hour) per inch (2.2 cm) of screen width. Thus a screen 2" wide would need 70 gph. This should cover the entire screen with a swift flow on both sides, and leave you with a little room for adjustment. The more flow, the better, but this amount has proven to work well. How tall the screen is does not change the gph, however; only the width does. Here is the chart:
Screen Width-----Gallons Per Hour (GPH)
2" 70
3" 105
4" 140
5" 175
6" 210
7" 245
8" 280
9" 315
10" 350
11" 385
12" 420
13" 455
14" 490
15" 525
16" 560
17" 595
18" 630
19" 665
20" 700
The basic rule of thumb for flow for a standard pipe slot is 35 gph (US gallons per hour) (140 liters per hour) per inch (2.2 cm) of screen width. Thus a screen 2" wide would need 70 gph. This should cover the entire screen with a swift flow on both sides, and leave you with a little room for adjustment. The more flow, the better, but this amount has proven to work well. How tall the screen is does not change the gph, however; only the width does. Here is the chart:
Screen Width-----Gallons Per Hour (GPH)
2" 70
3" 105
4" 140
5" 175
6" 210
7" 245
8" 280
9" 315
10" 350
11" 385
12" 420
13" 455
14" 490
15" 525
16" 560
17" 595
18" 630
19" 665
20" 700
I was thinking of a HOB type setup for my 20 gallon. I have been scrounging parts to build.
Just put water in my 37 eclipse system and will be trying it out soon. What is the best type screen to use? What I have in the pic is a divider for tank.
I don't suppose I will have much growth at all until I start feeding. But I am thinking, since I like using tap water, and I do get alot of growth, that the tap water may not be such an issue after this is up and running.
Are you still trying out that LED setup? Here is some screen info:
Just get any stiff material that has holes in it, like knitting backing, gutter guard, or tank-divider. Try going to hardware stores, craft stores, garden stores, sewing stores, or just get one of these online:
This "plastic canvas" one might be easier to get into the slot after cleaning, and the edges will not wear; it also will hold it's shape so that a solid frame is not needed:
http://www.everythingplasticcanvas.com/pc-20049-260-plastic-canvas-7-mesh-12-x-18.aspx
This "rug canvas" is made from fiber so that algae sticks to it the best; but it does not hold its shape when wet, so it will need a solid frame. Also, the edges will wear, so the frame will have to hold the edges down:
http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat2099&PRODID=prd12195
This "tank divider" is mentioned here because you can get them in any LFS, and because they come with clip-on edges that are great frames for any screen. However the screen material itself is very thin and smooth (needs sanding) with not many holes, thus during cleaning it's hard to get algae to stay on the screen:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2/Tank-Dividers/tank divider/0
Overall the rug canvas is the best but takes the most work; the tank divider is the easiest but works least well. I think the plastic canvas is best for most people. Many people ask about using the fiberglass screen from their windows (never use metal!). The main problem of this kind of "soft" screen will be getting it into the slot in the waterfall pipe; it will bend and fold too much. One way around this is to loop it around the waterfall pipe and attach it to itself, instead of slipping it into a slot. In this case you don't need a slot; a series of holes will work. This screen door method is only a last resort though, and will not work that well.
Just get any stiff material that has holes in it, like knitting backing, gutter guard, or tank-divider. Try going to hardware stores, craft stores, garden stores, sewing stores, or just get one of these online:
This "plastic canvas" one might be easier to get into the slot after cleaning, and the edges will not wear; it also will hold it's shape so that a solid frame is not needed:
http://www.everythingplasticcanvas.com/pc-20049-260-plastic-canvas-7-mesh-12-x-18.aspx
This "rug canvas" is made from fiber so that algae sticks to it the best; but it does not hold its shape when wet, so it will need a solid frame. Also, the edges will wear, so the frame will have to hold the edges down:
http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat2099&PRODID=prd12195
This "tank divider" is mentioned here because you can get them in any LFS, and because they come with clip-on edges that are great frames for any screen. However the screen material itself is very thin and smooth (needs sanding) with not many holes, thus during cleaning it's hard to get algae to stay on the screen:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2/Tank-Dividers/tank divider/0
Overall the rug canvas is the best but takes the most work; the tank divider is the easiest but works least well. I think the plastic canvas is best for most people. Many people ask about using the fiberglass screen from their windows (never use metal!). The main problem of this kind of "soft" screen will be getting it into the slot in the waterfall pipe; it will bend and fold too much. One way around this is to loop it around the waterfall pipe and attach it to itself, instead of slipping it into a slot. In this case you don't need a slot; a series of holes will work. This screen door method is only a last resort though, and will not work that well.
"Sly" on the SWF site is getting great growth in just 6 days from his trashcan-scrubber with built-in surge device:
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And what is this.... dinner?
...Nope, it a week of growth from just one side (the 6500K side) of my acrylic unit.
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And what is this.... dinner?
...Nope, it a week of growth from just one side (the 6500K side) of my acrylic unit.
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