Mildly controversial topic, prestressing fish for shipping

[platytudes]

I'm sure that a healthy, well fed cory would not perish or sicken from a depletion of energy, due to the effort it takes to expel their toxin. Spawning also takes a lot of energy. I would think as much, if not more, energy is necessary for the production and scattering of eggs...

I'm sure it would perish from poisoning itself in a small amount of water...even 5 gallons (way more water than anyone would use to ship) would still be a small amount.

Your reasoning seems a little backward to me, no offense. I don't think there is much science comprehension needed to understand that fish can and do die from being poisoned by their own toxins (including ammonia, in the case of fish like fancy goldfish). So you do what you need to do - agitate them, fast them, whatever it takes.

You could argue that it would be better to keep them bagged for a while, and then rebag them, but it seems much more convenient to just agitate them, and honestly I doubt it really stresses them that much more.

 

[Cerianthus]

I just saw Ian Fuller speak at the Catfish Convention this year (not for the first time). Information from reading his publications and information from Eric Bodrock is why I started agitating cories before shipping. Also, I have seen the milky like secretion after stressing them and seen fish roll over on their sides in shipping water and die. I would MUCH rather do this minor agitation than see countless people disappointed when they open their boxes to find dead fish.

Rachel,
Is there any available datas/info on-line, better if scientific, related to affect of prestressing factor other than catch/cont/packing) on Corys before shipping. Not on the toxins but in relationship between prestress, other than catching/counting/packing, releasing toxins to regeneration of toxins in the gland.
My question is the time involved with release/reproduction of toxin as this is part of routine bodily functions & other related facts as i dont attend these convention anymore. Thx in Adv.

 

[msjinkzd]

I have sent an email to Ian asking him for publications. I am going to send one to Eric as well. Most of the recognized "catfish guys" speak of this phenomenon and recommend startling the fish mildly over a course of time and doing water changes. Perhaps not a shark glove, but many do the "kick the bucket" method.

Most of the "experts" recommend a 10-30 minute time frame for prepping the cories for shipping. I, personally upon recommendation from them, do a tap tap tap on the dip and pour, wait about a minute or two, change the water. Let them sit and relax for about 10 minutes as I putter about, then repeat. The general consensus from what I have gleaned from presentations is it takes a day or more for them to build back the concentration of toxins. I hope to find out more specifics for you.

If Ian sends me publications, I will certainly share them here. I suffered a lot of losses awhile back shipping adult cories until I started doing this. My losses are nearly 0 now despite shipping hundreds of cories in a week. To me, that is testament enough.

 

[platytudes]

Rather than spend hours searching for scientific literature, what about asking Frank Falcone (Coryologist)? He has several live auctions on Aquabid:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?disp&viewseller&Coryologist

If Ian Fuller, Eric Bodrock, and Frank Falcone all used these shipping methods, would that suffice?

Or is the word of three experts who together have shipped many thousands of cories, still inadequate...

 

[platytudes]

If Ian sends me publications, I will certainly share them here.

Looking forward to that!

 

[msjinkzd]

shooot, I can call Frank too! Or send him an email

 

[Cerianthus]

I have sent an email to Ian asking him for publications. I am going to send one to Eric as well. Most of the recognized "catfish guys" speak of this phenomenon and recommend startling the fish mildly over a course of time and doing water changes. Perhaps not a shark glove, but many do the "kick the bucket" method.

Most of the "experts" recommend a 10-30 minute time frame for prepping the cories for shipping. I, personally upon recommendation from them, do a tap tap tap on the dip and pour, wait about a minute or two, change the water. Let them sit and relax for about 10 minutes as I putter about, then repeat. The general consensus from what I have gleaned from presentations is it takes a day or more for them to build back the concentration of toxins. I hope to find out more specifics for you.

If Ian sends me publications, I will certainly share them here. I suffered a lot of losses awhile back shipping adult cories until I started doing this. My losses are nearly 0 now despite shipping hundreds of cories in a week. To me, that is testament enough.

Thanx Rachel! Looking forward to it.

How many do you usually ship in what size bag & volume of H2O vs O2? I usually shipped/received in box lot. Are you pumping O2? Perhaps not as O2 tank should not be inadequately stored at home (bomb in case of fire).

Now back to degree of prestress, I am guessing what weve been discussing in ref to vid is totally unneccessary as Ive been saying that precedure involved with shipment may be enough stress factors.
What is mild agitation?? not what's on the Vid.

 

[fishorama]

I thought the video was cute but the threat to corys from shipping is real. There is a similar "toxic bag" effect with (some) loaches. The best way I've read is to individually bag them or at least not bag or contain them with other fish species. From what I remember it's with larger individuals that there's more apt to be problems.

I think this phenomenom is more recently evident with the rise of more non-commercial shipping. Some loses were the "usual" in imported shipments but with more hobbyist breeders & smaller resellers it has become more apparent.

I also wonder if maybe a small amount of activated carbon (or similar, Purigen?) might help adsorb some of these toxins. But the "kick the bucket" seems to work & I don't see it being any more stressful than chasing them around a tank with a net or allowing children to tap on the glass.

 

[Cerianthus]

I'm sure that a healthy, well fed cory would not perish or sicken from a depletion of energy, due to the effort it takes to expel their toxin. Spawning also takes a lot of energy. I would think as much, if not more, energy is necessary for the production and scattering of eggs...
Such are normal routine fucntions. Why apply more stress factors upon shipping when same enregy can be utilized in combating other shipping stress factors when cooke up in the bag.

I'm sure it would perish from poisoning itself in a small amount of water...even 5 gallons (way more water than anyone would use to ship) would still be a small amount.
Believe it or not 50-200 cories, depending on the type, sizes, duration of trip, etc are shipped/received in appr 2-3 gal of water/O2 pumped in to fill rest of bag with good results w/o Prestressing.
Upon arrival, it's recepient's responsibility to properly handle/hold them before redistributing. Sound so ------- ! lol!.
Ive said catching/counting/and other routine procedures of shipping is stress enough, no need for freaking them out.

Your reasoning seems a little backward to me, no offense. I don't think there is much science comprehension needed to understand that fish can and do die from being poisoned by their own toxins (including ammonia, in the case of fish like fancy goldfish). So you do what you need to do - agitate them, fast them, whatever it takes.
None Tanken! as what makes you think that toxins are not regenerated upon relase? You said it! Same energy can be utillized to combat other stress factors of shipping.

You could argue that it would be better to keep them bagged for a while, and then rebag them, but it seems much more convenient to just agitate them, and honestly I doubt it really stresses them that much more.
Not at all!!! Calcualting proper vol of H20/O2 and # and size of fish and of course, type of fish & duration of trip, etc should dictate the results as catching/packing procedure/trip itself are stress enough.[/QUOTE]

 

[jetajockey]

Are you pumping O2? Perhaps not as O2 tank should not be inadequately stored at home (bomb in case of fire).

I have an o2 tank at home. I have read a few posts about air breathing fish possibly getting something similar to the 'bends' from pure o2, but no real data to verify that. I've been bagging with o2 since I got the tank regardless.

I dont think having an o2 tank at home is unsafe at all, maybe consider that there are many in people's homes already, but for medical reasons.

I have a huge o2 tank that was used for medical purposes before I purchased it, but I think they are composed in a way that would not allow them to explode even if they were in a fire situation, i mean the regulator is metal and the valve is metal, so when its closed its closed.. At least it's highly unlikely if it were possible, and an exploding o2 tank is the least of my concerns if my house is burning to the ground.