My comprehensive post on setting up for CO2?

IMHO, we would all do better to think of KH as alkalinity and reserve "hard/soft" for GH.

GH and hard/soft impacts laundry and blackwater fish breeding. KH in natural waters controls pH.
 
I'll have to get the GH kit too then, since I am planning on some rams for breeding. Thanks for the clarification of GH and KH

Unfortunately, it looks like my CO2 project is now on hold after discovering ICH on my hatchetfish!

I should have quarrantined my new plants, as they are the only things I have added in over 3 weeks, and all previous fish were quarrantined.

:mad:
 
Many times hard water v. soft water means simply high pH or low pH. When keeping fish it general--with the exception of rift lake cichlids at one and and then some very specific species at the other end--it does not mean a lot at all. Most fish will easily acclimate to a wide range of pH (6.8-8.2). So, the entire discussion regarding "hardness" or pH is really nearly meaningless (the high pH of water being associated with the calcium aspect of the GH test).

The aspect that makes more sense--in relationship to fish--is the Total Dissolved Solids of the water. Here the importance when breeding is especially key. Many fish while being touted as low pH fish are really significantly more infuenced by the TDS level. The gonadatropic response is many times triggered by TDS level. At the same time the ability of the egg to fertilize and not calcify is significantly influenced by TDS levels. many "low pH" species will just not reproduce if the TDS content is high--regardless of the pH. The reson why some of us have those inane RO units. And, the reason so many of us tinker with things like sphangum peat. And, the reason so many of us kitchen/seat of the pants chemists tinker with how we refortify the RO water in order to make it suitable to sustain our fish.

Maybe we should just breed africans with the water so many of us enjoy across the US. So much easier--lol.

The only reason I mention this is the comment re: breeding what i assume are Microgeophagus ramirezi. If you are going to attempt to breed wild caughts, and many other strains available in the hobbyist market you will require low TDS water to achieve success. I read a post by another "mick" here the other day on the topic of breeding this particular species. He was on target. On the other hand this board seems to have one of the few exceptions I have encountered over the years when breeding the Microgeophagus ramirezi--EMG. She seems to enjoy great success with a high pH range. She should be glad she has whatever strain she has. it is great.
 
?????? "So, the entire discussion regarding "hardness" or pH is really nearly meaningless (the high pH of water being associated with the calcium aspect of the GH test)."

Huh? Ca++ has no effect on pH, GH has no effect on pH. Where on earth did that theory come from?
 
RTR said:
?????? "So, the entire discussion regarding "hardness" or pH is really nearly meaningless (the high pH of water being associated with the calcium aspect of the GH test)."

Huh? Ca++ has no effect on pH, GH has no effect on pH. Where on earth did that theory come from?
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The theory on that comes from what puts the calcium in the water or the hardness usually raises the pH. RTR I am not calling you out but simply stating how someone could get confused like this. Did you know that 100% saturated CaCl2 solution (dissolved in distilled water, acutal lab results) actually has a very basic pH of 9-10......Explain that. If you have hard water usually you will have a high pH because there are abundant carbonates and hydroxides (MgOH for example). There are instances of hard water being acidic and so forth but you can see what I am getting at..........or maybe not because I am in a rush and really didn't read in to the threads very well........
 
Crap, then why is my alkalinity at 377 ppm, my GH at 3.61 ppm, and my pH at 8.5?

If you have hard water usually you will have a high pH
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If that's true than the reverse must be true. I have soft water so I have a low pH...

Something is complicating this train of thought obviously.
 
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Not to hijack, but I have an observation/comment about your CO2 setup, YuccaPatrol:

There is no such thing as a "Hagen ladder" at Drs. Foster & Smith. I've done a search and I can't find anything of that sort.

Could you please maybe post and add to your guide what the "real" name of the product is so that people who don't know what a ladder is or looks like can find it?

Great work, btw!

Roan
 
There is all the difference in the world between a saturated solution of anything in distilled and in tank water. Putting out on the aquarium forums that Ca++ affects pH is not only misleading and confusing to folks w/o chemistry backgrounds, it is, in terms of the subject under discussion, absloutely wrong. Anybody who says that is not helping, they are hurting hobby understanding of GH and KH. I will never hesitate to call anyone on that.

In this hobby, high GH = hard water. If it is natural water, mostly it will be high in carbonates/bicarbnoates as well, but the high pH is due to the carbonates/bicarbonates, not to the anions* to which they were associated before the minerals went into solution. In processed water, all bets are off, depending on the processes involved and the additives used.

*Edit: Well, I blew that one and nobody caught it...it should have said cations.

Cations are not hyperactive felines, they are positively charged ions, i.e., Na+, K+, Ca++, Mg++, etc.. Anions are not necessarily hot dog toppings, they are negative charged ions, i.e. Cl-, NO3-, SO4--, CO3--, HCO3-, etc.. Does that help or make it worse?
 
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anions? is that a new variety of what many of us put on our chili dogs?

I am not going to join the debate--or the "heady" discussion of water stuff. probably to complicated for me.

To the point that was made. Yuccapatrol. worry more about Total Dissolved Solids than pH and you will probably be ahead in the breeding of the Microgeophagus ramirezi. You will probably notice that the importance of pH is not all that it is knocked up to be to get successful spawnings. lower pH has, however, always improved my fry survival rates. Especially when dealing with "Wild Caughts". And many of the commercial strains. Be cautious about evaluating your breeding success when dealing with farm varieties. The problem with farm is often as a result of the exposure to hormone use, chemical exposure, and genetics.

should have said it like that to avoid the game that is getting started. The upside with the statement above is we can now discuss water chemistry, genentics and farm fish. a more wide ranging series of topics to get cerebral with; and display our collective level of knowledge, IQ, expertise, and ego.
 
Sully said:
should have said it like that to avoid the game that is getting started. The upside with the statement above is we can now discuss water chemistry, genentics and farm fish. a more wide ranging series of topics to get cerebral with; and display our collective level of knowledge, IQ, expertise, and ego.
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To put this in another perspective: you are also educating people like me who have no chemistry background and know little about "how things work" in aquaria.

Every time a debate or discussion like this comes up, someone "rephrases" something that has already been said and that makes it a little clearer as to what is meant and how it affects things. Sometimes a light goes off in my attic and I just go, "OH! I REALLY understand now!"

Without these debates I would be spending all my time at Meriam-Webster.com just to find out what the heck you are all talking about and a zillion other chemistry web sites.

As for the ego part, well that's just gosh darn entertainment! :D

Roan
 
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