new to ich and clown loaches ( bad advice from lfs)

[p0tluck]

so i have never had ich before never and new to scaless fish

so heres the run down my tank is medium planted , its a 55 gallon i have 3 clown loaches. 8 rainbows, 6 ornate tetras and 6 lemon tetras and a calico BN

about 3 weeks ago i introduced 2 dwarf neon rainbows they were not sick at all , no ick, already quarantined so these were not the culprit, after i added them 2 days later i noticed that some fish in the tank (assuming dominant male turquoise ) bit his tail off , so i quarantined him but he did not make it, a few days later my roommate that got them for me from my lfs i always go to noticed they were chasing the female as well so she took an old net i forgot to throw away, stuck it in my tank to i guess what she called it as a time out (dont think this caused it either as theres no way ick can survive on a dry net for a year).. A few days later i decided to rearrange my entire tank which i don't know if this is what caused it but i did disturb the substrate pretty bad ( moving plants, decor, driftwood that's attached to slate etc etc so its very possible , the only other thing as NOTHING has been off water quality wise..
AMMONIA 0
NITRITE 0
NITRATE 15
PH 7.4
Phosphate 0.5
water temp 77
is i don't have ac its been really really hot , my tank has been getting to 85-87 my heater is set to 77 but it doesnt drop super fast after the house cools down, takes some time to go from that high temp to 77 so i honestly dont know how i got ich.

so onto how a lfs told me to treat it because my lfs was closed, they told me to raise temp to 85 and dose rid ich plus at 10 ml (1/2 dose because of plants and clowns) the bottle i had was not expired but when i added it the med did nothing didn't even dye the water.. so i got a new bottle and dosed and knew right away that my other bottle was bad, my clowns have been suffering so bad every since gasping at the surface, not eating even with it soaked in garlic, i did and immidiate 50% water change when i saw them gasping at the surface then i did a 25% 8 hours later and a 25% yesterday, But they are still gasping at the surface Only when i turn on the lunars (moonlight) , my theory is this as im doing it old school way WITHOUT salt because A.) plants and B.) i still have rid ich plus in my tank because im broke atm and dont have carbon to remove it and it has formalin in it which mixed with salt is deadly.. so the old school no med way just heat should work right? even with no salt? also why are the loaches only gasping at the surface when i turn the moonlights on? also i have 2 4" disk air stone running as well 1 aquaclear 110 and an aquaclear 70 with a lower tank level so it splashes into the tank so i should NOT have an oxygen issue even when i turn the main lights off and the moonlights on the plants should not consume that much oxygen to where it makes my loaches gasp at the surface or so i would think ( this is the only time they go to the surface is when i turn the main lights off)

so what is going on? is it a possibility that the plants are consuming all the oxygen when the main whites are off?

maybe its because theres still meds in the tank even though i have did a lot of water changes ??

i read with ich you have to turn the lights off especially only doing heat because ich thrives on light ( does this include moonlight aka lunar blues ) or am i okay to turn those on at night

i dont get this at all as i said ive never had ich before but i know thats definitely what they have but i need honest brutal options on what to do so i can actually sleep without worrying about waking up to my prize fish or any fish for that matter dead because of oxygen , and also opinions on just heat no meds and agressivve gravel vaccing method

No i dont run co2 i've had a few people ask me that

tank is at 85.7 degrees
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 15
ph 7.4
PLEASE help ty

 

[OrionGirl]

The last fish in are the most likely culprits. Ich is only visible as the mature Trophozoites on the skin of the fish. There is an internal growth stage that cannot be seen. Also, many fish will have a low level of infection, but only have it be serious when stressed. Lots of changes could contribute to stresses that allow it to develop to a full blown infection. (I am not of the opinion that ich is present in all aquariums.)

That said--if you have done adequate water changes to remove the meds, yes, elevated temperature will kill the parasite. I'd aim for 88. The plants use oxygen when lights are off, and if heavily planted, in combination with the lower holding capacity of the warmer water, could be enough to be enough to cause the loaches to gasp--keep in mind, ich attached to their gills, and compromises their ability to get oxygen.

 

[p0tluck]

The last fish in are the most likely culprits. Ich is only visible as the mature Trophozoites on the skin of the fish. There is an internal growth stage that cannot be seen. Also, many fish will have a low level of infection, but only have it be serious when stressed. Lots of changes could contribute to stresses that allow it to develop to a full blown infection. (I am not of the opinion that ich is present in all aquariums.)

That said--if you have done adequate water changes to remove the meds, yes, elevated temperature will kill the parasite. I'd aim for 88. The plants use oxygen when lights are off, and if heavily planted, in combination with the lower holding capacity of the warmer water, could be enough to be enough to cause the loaches to gasp--keep in mind, ich attached to their gills, and compromises their ability to get oxygen.

So what can I do differently, was thinking about a power head instead of the air stones, or maybe a third air stone, I can't leave the lights on because that's when ich thrives so I've read, the last fish in are the Dwarf neon rainbows and the female is the only one left (male got ate) and she has no ich on her what so ever, not even in this massive outbreak, I'm Getting carbon in the filter today plus another water change, im sure there's still some meds in the tank but not enough for the high heat to affect the fish if that makes sense as you're not supposed to raise temp when using the rid ich, also will the ich thrive under the moonlight mode or just when I have the mains on? My tanks never been full dark and the fish do not like it at all.

Also why would a fish store tell me to use rid ich plus with loaches when it has a warning right on bottle about scaless fish?

 

[OrionGirl]

Lights won't make a difference to ich. It is not light sensitive nor does it benefit from light. UV light will actually kill the free swimming stage.

Carbon will remove the meds, so the increased temp can be effective if you're not able to complete the medication course. Really...picking on method and completing the process will be best for the fish. If you still see signs after 10 days, then a different tactic makes sense, but not midway through.

 

[p0tluck]

Lights won't make a difference to ich. It is not light sensitive nor does it benefit from light. UV light will actually kill the free swimming stage.

Carbon will remove the meds, so the increased temp can be effective if you're not able to complete the medication course. Really...picking on method and completing the process will be best for the fish. If you still see signs after 10 days, then a different tactic makes sense, but not midway through.

I had to stop the rid ich because my loaches were on their death bed 2 hours after adding it I literally gently picked them up with my hand they didn't even move, but I'm sticking to the heat method.

Might melt my plants but they are replaceable And just gives me incentive to rescape if you wanna call it that lol.

 

[p0tluck]

I had to stop the rid ich because my loaches were on their death bed 2 hours after adding it I literally gently picked them up with my hand they didn't even move, but I'm sticking to the heat method.

Might melt my plants but they are replaceable And just gives me incentive to rescape if you wanna call it that lol.

What signs do I look for when looking for permanent damage that might have been done to the loaches from the rid ich as I've read some can handle it some cannot and the ones that cant sometimes get permanent damage.

 

[fishorama]

I'm an old school fan of methylene blue (or Victoria blue) dyes for ich tx. I've never seen 88F temps do more than speed the ich lifecycle. At "maybe" 92F, but I've read of heat resistant forms of ich, I wouldn't bet on it alone. & high temps cut down on oxygen in the water.

As OrionGirl said there isn't a light & ich interaction. Or chronic ich, you either have it or don't, it cannot magically appear after months.

It may be the formalin that is distressing your loaches. Since you have what seems to be good oxygenation from the splashing filters (good!) it may be either ich in their gills or the formalin causing the surface gasping.

I'm also going to agree that your latest fish brought the ich. It can hide in gills or in the bag water if you allowed lfs water into the tank. Ich has 3 stages, basically on the fish as little white dots (like salt). Then it falls off into the substrate & then into the water column to reinfect fish. So even if you don't see it on your fish, it's still in the tank. That is why it's so important to thoroughly treat long enough.

You can also try dosing loaches or other sensitive fish at a half dose of dye...but then you MUST treat for even longer. I've had good luck dosing half in the am & again half at night. Good vacuuming & water changes every day help reduce the amount ich in the tank.

Ich is very treatable if caught early & treated long enough to get it all. Good luck!

 

[p0tluck]

I'm an old school fan of methylene blue (or Victoria blue) dyes for ich tx. I've never seen 88F temps do more than speed the ich lifecycle. At "maybe" 92F, but I've read of heat resistant forms of ich, I wouldn't bet on it alone. & high temps cut down on oxygen in the water.

As OrionGirl said there isn't a light & ich interaction. Or chronic ich, you either have it or don't, it cannot magically appear after months.

It may be the formalin that is distressing your loaches. Since you have what seems to be good oxygenation from the splashing filters (good!) it may be either ich in their gills or the formalin causing the surface gasping.

I'm also going to agree that your latest fish brought the ich. It can hide in gills or in the bag water if you allowed lfs water into the tank. Ich has 3 stages, basically on the fish as little white dots (like salt). Then it falls off into the substrate & then into the water column to reinfect fish. So even if you don't see it on your fish, it's still in the tank. That is why it's so important to thoroughly treat long enough.

You can also try dosing loaches or other sensitive fish at a half dose of dye...but then you MUST treat for even longer. I've had good luck dosing half in the am & again half at night. Good vacuuming & water changes every day help reduce the amount ich in the tank.

Ich is very treatable if caught early & treated long enough to get it all. Good luck!

I was dosing at 1/2 dose with the rid ich, the ich is going away on the tetras but the clowns are much harder to cure it, I also ran into a problem today, which I found a white fuzz ball thing on my loaches nose like a fungus or a secondary infection, I'm so ready to just pull My hair out, ill getsl a better pic when my nerves calm down from just finding it. I need advice on what to do as I'm testing ich so I can't turn heater down to 76 so the bacteria doesnt spread also I don't have a qt tank for them or they would if been in it from the beginning, and what is this and how do I treat it while treating ich.?

 

[p0tluck]

Better pic, poor guy

 

[p0tluck]

Loaches didn't make it in so close to just giving up, I understand fish die but I did everything I was told to do and they just didn't pull though, I know that loaches are pretty hard to treat when they do they get infected, but seeing the 3 of them grouped up dead just crushed me like they knew they were going to die so they all died together.

I have some weird stuff growing on my drift wood like white fuzzy stuff, alot of the other fish have lost color dont know if that's because I've had the lights out for a few days, and the temp is at 86 as I'm still treating for ich with just heat I just wish there was more I could have done to save my precious loaches my tanks never going to be the same as I won't get anymore in the fact i just don't have a big enough tank, what precautions should I take in case they had another thing wrong with them as before I found them dead their eyes looked cloudy and tail tips were frayed and had a white discoloration to them couldn't tell if it was fuzzy.