Plants vs. algae

[plantbrain]

Tom, thank you for putting your time and effort into that post, very eye opening!

Well, for many, it's really liberating.
Now they can focus much more on the basics and what they want: gardening.

Many are stuck in a rut with the old myths and dogma, it's very hard to change one's mind and be convinced otherwise. Takes a certain amount of personal humility. I honestly realize I know very little about some rather basic things. Even the wisened Socrates felt a similar way. Once you get to that point, now you can really work forward and look at it much more critically.

This, much more than some key detail or topic is what really illuminates.

Maybe I’m different then most aquarist’s, because I love to test, for me it’s all part of the hobby. I like “working” on it, more then looking at it. I test almost every day. In the last 3 months I can’t tell you how many Phosphate, Nitrate KH and PH test kit’s I’ve gone through, but it’s been a lot!

Nothing wrong with this.
Many do it.

But to what end? What do you really know from this data?
What questions do you hope to answer?
What is the big larger picture?

Work, testing is fine, but to what end?
You need to know where you are goign and what you want to answer, then think will this test or experimental design actually answer my question? What can I really say about these facts/results? Is this a safe conclusion or are there holes?

According to the tests I’ve run I’ve only had 3 significant drops in Co2 which I discovered the issue and fixed. Three times I knocked the filter exhaust towards the surface with my hand and forgot to fix it! With the two glass bottles I run, the amount of surface disturbance I allow, I’m getting 25-30ppm of Co2. I think I’m getting fairly accurate results, I test a sample of water after shaking it for about a minute and letting it stand for 10 minutes. Then I test a straight sample so I can see the difference. I test for phosphate and Nitrate before and after I do a water change with “Tropica” N/P fertilizer. I have also tested my tap water several times, KH, GH and PH are identical to a sample of shaken tank water.

My equipment, and lets say “approximate” parameters,

46 gallon Bowfront
2 T-5 lamps with 2 bulbs each totaling 84 watts
Glass cover
Twin glass DIY Co2 (I change one bottle every two weeks)
Filters 1) eheim 2215 1) 2217 1)Professional 2. Yes I’m running massive filtration
Fish,
10 Fan-Tail Leopards
3 small Clown Loaches
15-20% water changes every Sunday at 11:00am sharp!

Before waterchange/Fert,
NO3------0
PO4 ------0
KH--------7.5 (I do 10 ml in the test tube not 5ml)
PH--------- CO2 6.9-6.8……..tab and shaken tank water reads 7.6

The Co2 drops to 15-20ppm for the first day after I change a bottle and then goes back up to 25-30 (6.9-6.8) till I change the next bottle. I’ve had it up to 35ppm but I increased surface disturbance to bring it back down. I think the growth is impressive; I’ve gone from barely planted 3 months ago to just insane!

What would you say I could do to help me under stand this,

Right now, my water change is 15% plus just 5ml Tropica with N/P per week. I’ve been doing this religiously for the last three months, but I just started with the Tropica N/P two weeks ago. For the first 2 months I wasn’t even using fertilizers! I test NO3/PO4 before firt/water change and get virtually zero of each. I test after (about 30min) I get “about” 5ppm NO3 and .25 Phosphate. I test everyday after and it’s gone in 3 days. If I add more then that, I get green hair algae on the glass that lasts for about 2-3 days and then it dies. I also get a bitty bit of what appears to be BBA, but if I back down on the fertilizer it goes away also. I think once the tank has even more plant growth I’ll be able to add more fert but If I try to add enough to last straight through the week I’ll defiantly have but loads of algae.

So what gives? What do you think? And thanks for reading.

Shawn

I think the Gas tank CO2/solenouid dual stage reg, high grade needle valve will make your life better than sliced bread.

You are hooked and like the techy stuff.
So buy this, DIY threads,(see LeftC's epic thread on Dual stage reg's).

Stick with the light you now have, it's actually at the upper range, more than I have on all my tanks.

Check out Hoppy's comparison of T5, PC and T12 bulbs on the Planted Tank.net

Try to stick with 30-35ppm for CO2 and keep it there during the day only.

Look into sediment rich methods, eg, ADA AS seems like a good option for you. DIY soil or Worm castings alos might be considered, but these are two part layers, I prefer one single homogenous sediment that's rich like ADA.

To control rates of growth, reduce the light down, say from 10 hours, down to 8, or use metal screen to block the intensity. Light, not CO2, should be used, it's the most stable parameter you have.

Tropica N and P can be DIY if you prefer it, but it's mostly water, with aittle bit of ferts in there. KNO3, KH2PO4 etc, are very cheap and you pay for no water. See aquariumfertilizer.com
20-30$=> lifetime of ferts for this tank, well, a few years' worth anyway.

Bottom line for you, and having done DIY CO2 for a decade myself, the Achilles Heel: is that pesky CO2. So get Gas, you'll never go back to DIY CO2.

It's worth its weight in gold. You rarely see folks going" Aww, this stinks, I'll go back to DIY yeast etc........."

This will take care of this nagging nutrient dependency on CO2.
Then it'll free you from worrying about the N and P so much, and you will have far less algae and much better long term stable plant growth.

I will say this upon the switch, be much more careful about adding too much, it's much easier to do than with DIY CO2, you can easily kill your fish if you are impatient. that is one of the main benefits of DIY, it's much harder to add too much, but it's easy to add too little.

So go slow and methodical, progressively adjust and watch for a few days.
I use a vernier caliper handle for my needle valves. This makes adjustments easy and metered.

regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

Heh. I forgot all about that. How did all that turn out, btw? I'm going to see "E.O." this weekend and now maybe I'll ask him. Might not be a pleasant subject tho?

Case got dropped and throw out by the judge, at least for some(myself).
I do not mind discussing it, others where not so fortunate however and may.

The UK case was more about nutrients, methods etc.
Did not actually go to court, just some threatening letters was enough to scare them. You actually have to sue me and win to threaten me. That's not been done yet.

Takes a lot of effort and a very tenacious person to mess with me legally and typically a lot of money. If you cannot shoot a mean dog, toss a jar of fleas on em.

How much is is it worth to you? That's often the bottom line, see Food Inc, they have a few good examples of such trade offs legally with different folks.

Awww, the love of lawyers on tax day.:topic:
Done enough pro se representation and have several lawyers in my immediate family. But if folks would simply get along, they'd be out of work.
It's always more than you think and much more hassle anytime a legal issue comes up. Keep tthat in the back of your mind.

For some, it's more about ego and revenge. It's no longer about the $.
Corporations? Virtually always about the $.

So you have a few different perspectives.
I better go send my tax$ in

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[The Plantman]

I will look into it for sure but I got to get it past the wife! :rant2:

You know what I man?

Thanks for the reply, your all right!:thm:

 

[plantbrain]

I will look into it for sure but I got to get it past the wife! :rant2:

You know what I man?

Thanks for the reply, your all right!:thm:

Cannot help you with the wife.
You married her, not me:FIREdevil:

I can tell you if the tank looks better, and you sell a few plants etc, and make a little $, then she will like you more.

Red Cherry Shrimp would be a good addition, and they can be bred and sold pretty easily. Start with 10, end up with 500.

But the CO2 gas tank, learn everything CO2.
Ebay, DIY those parts etc, save the $, get the nice good stuff for cheap. This will last you a lifetime once you buy it.

Here's the cool thing also: Add Tee and another needle valve, now you have another line for another aquarium. No need for another tank and regulator etc.

You did not hear this from me(tell her that).

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[The Plantman]

Cannot help you with the wife.
You married her, not me:FIREdevil:

I can tell you if the tank looks better, and you sell a few plants etc, and make a little $, then she will like you more.

Red Cherry Shrimp would be a good addition, and they can be bred and sold pretty easily. Start with 10, end up with 500.

But the CO2 gas tank, learn everything CO2.
Ebay, DIY those parts etc, save the $, get the nice good stuff for cheap. This will last you a lifetime once you buy it.

Here's the cool thing also: Add Tee and another needle valve, now you have another line for another aquarium. No need for another tank and regulator etc.

You did not hear this from me(tell her that).

Regards,
Tom Barr

Are there any "kits" you could suggest. Or people who sell them at a reasonable price? Say under 200 bucks or so. I looked into this just quickly before. I was looking at the items at Aquarium Services and the prices were outrageous!

 

[plantbrain]

Ebay and know/learn what you need.
See LeftC's thread on dual stage regs, plenty of examples there, ask etc if this reg etc is good etc, then bid etc, often you get nice 100-200$ regs for 20-35$.

Valves: 10-35$ or so.
Swagelok are good.

Gas tanks: look for local fire extinguisher places that do refills, they often have 10-20lb tanks fills for 40-80$ or less.

Solenoid: Parker make decent ones, maybe 20-30$ range.
Use soapy water to check for leaks, tape good, tighten good etc.
I like Tygon tubing, 1/8" ID, really nice and thick.

Also, if you want to model EI dosing, make a different % water change, or
add less/more ppm's of "stuff", dose daily or 3x a week, or want to assume that 0%, 10%, 100%, 90 % etc are taken up by the plants:

http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl

Save this, makes a nice easy to use model.
You can go back and check to verify or estimate model and the % uptake by the plants.

If you do a 100% water change, then dose back, then that's the same reference standard, no need to test, if you do a partial water change, say 50%, you know at least 50% of what the concentrations are no matter what.

And so on.........

Regards,
Tom Barr