Thats good because of course it can ... further if you are doing timely testing of your water parameters and promptly addressing any conditions that might arise then you can minimize the potential for danger to livestock. The risks are usually higher when you have a inattentive keeper - be on your toes and you will drastically minimize if not eliminate the risks turning into disasters..
Preferred way to cycle a new tank?
- Thread starter Squeakfish
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Thats good because of course it can ... further if you are doing timely testing of your water parameters and promptly addressing any conditions that might arise then you can minimize the potential for danger to livestock. The risks are usually higher when you have a inattentive keeper - be on your toes and you will drastically minimize if not eliminate the risks turning into disasters..
I have a somewhat related question... if I'm doing a fishless cycle with ammonia levels 4-7ppm, and showing some NitrAtes, is it safe to add plants, or are they susceptible to damage by high ammonia and NitrIte levels?
Thanks
Thanks
Question Karl: If you had (for hypothetical purposes): pay $100.00 for each "hardy" species instead of $1, for the silent cycle, would you find yourself risking that type of investment for this method or would you find an alternative one that would not put your investment at risk?
Question Karl: How many "Hardy" species does one truly keep stocked in their tank, after the cycle is completed? If the Silent cycle was so sure fire harmless, why wouldn't one simply stock the species that they had originally wanted to house?
Question Karl: If the silent cycle is so effective at eliminating all NH3/4 and N02, why the need for a outside filters? Such as; Canister, HOB, Sump, sponges ect...,? one would only need H20 changes for excessive N03. Again mechanical filtration can be accomplished at WCs.
I'm not Dutch so I need one.
Karl, I try and never assume one's intentions.... I'm not out to save all the creatures of the planet either..., I do believe that IF we have methods available to us (and we do) that would never put livestock in jeopardy no matter how low the risk, than I believe we should pursue/develop those methods as responsible stewards of the hobby. Look we are human....we make mistakes we learn from them (hopefully) and move on.... The point I'm trying to make is that we are human and we will make mistakes in cycling our tanks.... We error because were not perfect. That said: why would we promote a method that by your own admission (you too Derringer) is going to fail for some, Simply because of their ignorance, at the cost of another creature?? If we have methods (and we do) that simply will not risk any livestock no matter how much we error, or misunderstand what one's version of a "planted Tank" is with the same end result?
But lets take the debate a bit further and simply weigh the pro and cons of each method.....I'll list the Pros/Cons for a fish less cycle and if you will, you can post the pros/Cons of a silent cycle.....
Pro for a fish less cycle:
1, No livestock is EVER risked in this method.
2, Simple Testing NH3/4 levels only during the beginning stages of cycle.
3, No H20 changes required, until the cycle has been completed.
4, No need for me to try and estimate the amount of plant mass required.
5, No need to add anything other than NH3 during the entire cycle.
6, No Cost to hobbyist for livestock during cycle.
7, No cost to hobbyist for plant mass prior to cycle.
8, No Cost for to hobbyist for H20 additives for the livestock during cycle.
9, No Cost for hobbyist for C02/Ferts for plant mass required for silent cycle.
Cons for a fish less cycle:
1, unable to see livestock in tank prior to cycle completion.
2, Algae possible if plant mass is not sufficient to compete for NH3/4
3, ............
Please anybody that wants to Chime in Please do for or against.....
We all could use the knowledge....
Troy
NeonJulie, I have mosses in my 135G as we speak and they are coming back to my satisfaction... I believe that yes, indeed you may and not suffer any ill effects. I think the reason why I lost some rooted plant species is do to the substrate I currently am experimenting with... along with plant shipments to this furnace I call home....(Central Florida) I've had NH3/4 readings as high as 7ppms with no ill effects to wards the plants.... By the way at 7ppms: my wet/dry sump is digesting that in about 6 hrs so far. As I progress daily, my readings for elevated NH3/4 levels decrease progressively shorter in duration as the days click off. My Nitrites are still off the chart though.
Troy
interesting discussion.
however the OP does have an established 5 gallon tank.. and has established media.
it should be safe to add the fish and the media to the new tank and watch for a 'possible' minor spike.
the use of established media to establish a cycle is well covered in other discussion threads in AC. any plants will add an extra dimension in regards to any mini cycle that may occur.
susantroy"Question Karl: If the silent cycle is so effective at eliminating all NH3/4 and N02, why the need for a outside filters? Such as; Canister, HOB, Sump, sponges ect...,? one would only need H20 changes for excessive N03. Again mechanical filtration can be accomplished at WCs.
I'm not Dutch so I need one."
just an interesting observation..in a medium planted tank..stock 6 black neons 2 angel fish 1 largeish bn(male)
I recently lost power when regained I was working on my marine tanks and discus tank to make sure they recovered. I negelected (my fault) to check on this 29 gallon tank 3 days the filters were turned off.(failed to start) I noticed it at feeding time on the 3rd day..
the fish were fine..NH3-0, N02- 0, NO3- 20(normal) the filters were nearly dry and bacteria mostly dead...
I rinsed the filter to clear dead bacteria(in old tank water) readded some bacteria from a nearby angel tank( I keep sponges on hand) monitored just in case..never had any spikes.
even more interesting..the fish were fine and no issues in the tank.
however the OP does have an established 5 gallon tank.. and has established media.
it should be safe to add the fish and the media to the new tank and watch for a 'possible' minor spike.
the use of established media to establish a cycle is well covered in other discussion threads in AC. any plants will add an extra dimension in regards to any mini cycle that may occur.
susantroy"Question Karl: If the silent cycle is so effective at eliminating all NH3/4 and N02, why the need for a outside filters? Such as; Canister, HOB, Sump, sponges ect...,? one would only need H20 changes for excessive N03. Again mechanical filtration can be accomplished at WCs.
I'm not Dutch so I need one."
just an interesting observation..in a medium planted tank..stock 6 black neons 2 angel fish 1 largeish bn(male)
I recently lost power when regained I was working on my marine tanks and discus tank to make sure they recovered. I negelected (my fault) to check on this 29 gallon tank 3 days the filters were turned off.(failed to start) I noticed it at feeding time on the 3rd day..
the fish were fine..NH3-0, N02- 0, NO3- 20(normal) the filters were nearly dry and bacteria mostly dead...
I rinsed the filter to clear dead bacteria(in old tank water) readded some bacteria from a nearby angel tank( I keep sponges on hand) monitored just in case..never had any spikes.
even more interesting..the fish were fine and no issues in the tank.
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Thank you for the responses - the plants are ordered, and should be here later this week. (Hopefully by then I'll know more about where I'm at with my cycle!)
I wouldn't be keeping fish at all, because I wouldn't be able to risk that sort of value in any tank, cycled in any way.
That is exactly what one does. Who said it was hardy fish you initially stocked with for a silent cycle? Again, you're confusing a silent cycle with a traditional fishy cycle.
Frequently if I'm busy and miss a regular clean, my filter virtually slows to a trickle. Ammonia and nitrite remain at zero. The filter is there as to provide mechanical filtration, water movement and therefore oxygenation. My experience, as with that of star_rider above, is that the filter is actually contributing little or nothing to the process of converting ammonia to nitrate in a moderately to heavy planted tank. The simple fact that many planted tank keepers have to add nitrate shows that the plants are able to more than incorporate all the nitrogenous wastes produced by the fish.
Where did I say that?
Any method is prone to failure if not done properly. Silent cycle will fail if the plants aren't healthy or the lighting is inadequate. Fishless cycle will fail if the aquarist doesn't use his test kits properly or delays between the end of the cycle and stocking. And if he doesn't put the complete stock in straight away, he will lose much of his bacterial flora and experience a mini-cycle when fish stocks increase. Both methods are the same here - they can fail if not done properly.
We don't have any such method. I've just outlined how fishless cycles can fail. I've seen it time and again on these boards and others.
Not so. As I said above, simple common errors can put the livestock at risk after the fishless cycle is believed over.
You have to monitor ammonia and nitrite throughout. I don't bother with a silent cycle, just do occasional tests.
But with a silent cycle there is no actual cycle period. You're straight into normal tank maintenance, with weekly water changes.
"A decent amount" has always been an adequate measure.
No need to add anything during a silent cycle, except the ferts you're going to be adding all the time anyway.
You're begging the question, assuming that the silent cycle kills fish. It doesn't.
But this is a method for planted tanks! The aquarist is going to be buying the plants anyway!
As above. Nothing extra needed that won't be in regular use once the tank is fully stocked.
No CO2 required. Ferts will be needed anyway.
More cons:
1. Ammonia can be hard to source. "Where can I get ammonia from I've tried everywhere" is a common cry on here.
2. Aquarist has to buy entire stock (or a significant proportion of it) all in one go at the end of the process.
3. Low KH water can experience sudden pH crashes because no water is changed during the process
From where I'm standing, there are more cons than you listed, and many of your pros are also true of the silent cycle. I think you significantly underestimate how much plants metabolise nitrogenous wastes in a planted aquarium.
Don't get me wrong; the fishless method with ammonia is a good method, but in a planted tank, so is the silent method.
Star_rider
I do not know the levels of beneficial Bacteria that may have been Killed off in your power outage and I doubt there is a good way to estimate that.... Lets not overlook the N-bacteria that is established in ones substrate. Though I'm not in a position to accurately guess but I'm petty certain that is where the majority of N-bacteria can be found. If you follow others theory your filter is mainly there for mechanical filtration and is of little use other than that in a planted tank.
Troy
I do not know the levels of beneficial Bacteria that may have been Killed off in your power outage and I doubt there is a good way to estimate that.... Lets not overlook the N-bacteria that is established in ones substrate. Though I'm not in a position to accurately guess but I'm petty certain that is where the majority of N-bacteria can be found. If you follow others theory your filter is mainly there for mechanical filtration and is of little use other than that in a planted tank.
Troy
that was my point..there is plenty left in the tank. that coupled with plants(anacharis/egeria, wisteria and others) ..the filter was mostly a point to show that the tank can support the fish and the filter was adding mechanical filtration.
my point was also that with the existing tank the OP had the bacteria needed to start the culture if needed.
my point was also that with the existing tank the OP had the bacteria needed to start the culture if needed.
My two cents...
I only have a little 12g, and the biofilter for that is pretty small, maybe 3". I do know though, that when I moved my tank across the country, I left an inch of water and crushed food, and then it had to be closed up and covered over when packed. Without any additional filtration, water, or air movement, more than a week later I opened up the cover and had marvelous earthy smell and a healthy ecology.
I've also tried the method of borrowing filter media several times now - in advance, I run two cartridges for 2 or so months, and beef up the food amount to increase growth. Everytime, even in a tiny tank (like 4g and 16g), I'm always shocked by the mini-cycle I experience and the week or so before the tank really cycles, and how many water changes I have to do with relatively few fish, just to make sure the number stays under .25ppm. I'm sure it helps, but I wouldn't feel safe putting fish in a tank started only with some seeded bacteria, until I could test it with ammonia or something and make sure.
The reason I'm even putting in plants is because one case I read, was an evacuation from a hurricane, and they couldn't net all the fish in time, so they had to leave them with a few inches of water, and the power turned off. All the fish were fine, all the colonies fine. With the ice storm power outages out here, I'm hoping my plants would keep "filtration" going, and the bacteria on the substrate would function enough, if it had to.
I only have a little 12g, and the biofilter for that is pretty small, maybe 3". I do know though, that when I moved my tank across the country, I left an inch of water and crushed food, and then it had to be closed up and covered over when packed. Without any additional filtration, water, or air movement, more than a week later I opened up the cover and had marvelous earthy smell and a healthy ecology.
I've also tried the method of borrowing filter media several times now - in advance, I run two cartridges for 2 or so months, and beef up the food amount to increase growth. Everytime, even in a tiny tank (like 4g and 16g), I'm always shocked by the mini-cycle I experience and the week or so before the tank really cycles, and how many water changes I have to do with relatively few fish, just to make sure the number stays under .25ppm. I'm sure it helps, but I wouldn't feel safe putting fish in a tank started only with some seeded bacteria, until I could test it with ammonia or something and make sure.
The reason I'm even putting in plants is because one case I read, was an evacuation from a hurricane, and they couldn't net all the fish in time, so they had to leave them with a few inches of water, and the power turned off. All the fish were fine, all the colonies fine. With the ice storm power outages out here, I'm hoping my plants would keep "filtration" going, and the bacteria on the substrate would function enough, if it had to.
