Slew of Questions (Cycling, Stocking, and Care)

[authmal]

The first test kit you linked should include a ph, high range ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kit. It is the most common kit used and is very effective. Avoid test strips. Also you will need to look for a bottle of pure ammonia or other source of ammonia for the cycle. The little bottles that come in the test kit contain another chemical that tests for ammonia. They aren't actually a source of ammonia.

Those tiny snails usually hitchhike in on plants and such from the LFS's tanks. I've never heard of them coming in on a fish though.


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Not should, will. I have one just like it (although I have managed to break one of the vials) on my wife's computer desk at this moment.

And axelrod is correct about the snails.

That said, there's reason to feel guilty about some deaths. Others? There's nothing you can do, as long as you're doing what you're supposed to. Snails getting out? Rare occurrence, and I've only found one snail out of the tank since I first started keeping fish many, many years ago. Shrimp getting eaten? The Lion King has a song called Circle of Life. It happens.

Another factor to consider with a clean up crew is potential neglect. Life is a four letter word and things happen. They help make sure that things don't get out of hand if you miss a clean up or water change. Also, snails such as Malaysian Trumpet snails tend to travel through your substrate, aerating (you know what I mean) it and disturbing pockets of anaerobic bacteria so they don't end up harming your fish. If you're worried about "pest" snails overrunning your tank, 2-4 assassin snails should keep the population in check, and they'll even eat algae if there aren't any "pest" snails. I'm actually planning on getting myself a number of assassins, and have actually cultivated bladder, ramshorn, and MTS.

 

[authmal]

One other thing, if your going to get a 20 long as suggested, take a good look at a 29. Same footprint and again more stocking options easier to maintain etc.


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True, and a 29, in my opinion, looks huge. That said, cost becomes more of a factor. A 20 high or long is going to cost less than a 29, and adequate filtration (AC 20 or 30/C2 for a 20 gallon tank vs. AC 50 or C3) is a bit more pricy. Depends on your budget. My first tank after I got married and had been out of fishkeeping for almost a decade was a 55. Not that it helped me not do stupid things, but I did eventually learn better.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you want to do a fishless cycle they are not as awful as folks make out. For a long time this was the only way tanks were cycled and fish keepers knew how to do them properly. There are drawbacks to doing a fishless cycle however.

1. Most fish are not suitable.
2. It takes six months or more from start to full stocking.
3. It is unforgiving of mistakes- get it wrong and fish suffer.

Most people are not aware of the fact the the levels of ammonia or nitrite that can harm a fish are not universal numbers. Some fish can handle more ammonia and nitrite than others- this is a scientific fact. If you really want to go the fishless route, gouramis are not the proper fish- think zebra danios. You can swap out fish down the road as to reach the point where you will be slowly ramping up your stock.

I really do not want to get into a knock down drag out on this topic on the forums on how properly to cycle with with fish. Most people can only repeat a lot of the misinformation on this topic that now prevails.

Despite everything I have just said I will tell you that fishless is the far better route to go for the floowing reasons:
1. Its faster. You can have a fully cycled tank in under 2 months- often in as little as 5-6 weeks.
2. Its less work.
3. Mistakes kill or harm nothing, they just make it go slower.

Whichever route you choose, the one thing that helps with cycling, either kind, is seeding bacteria in some form. This can be done with filter media, substrate decor or plants from established tanks. The one drawback to this is you will also be getting any pathogens that might be in a donor tank. There area also a couple of bottled bacteria products one can use which will also help greatly. However, it is important to use the right ones.

The key to a good fish in cycling is to start small and ramp up slowly. You can think of it this way- the body mass of a fish is what you focus on. Once you get the cycle established for one or two small hardy fish, each addition must be done so as not to increase the bio-load on the bacteria by much more than 25% at a time. So look at the size of one zebra danio and then the size of a dwarf gourami. The gourami would have to to go in later on with some cycling fish coming out when you added it. You can not keep two males in a tank the size you plan to get.

As for live plants, they can help the cycle in two ways. The first is the will have some of the good bacteria you want on them. So they can prodvide some seeding. But also, plants consume ammonia. To the extant they do this, they reduce the amount of bacteria need to handle this chore. Plants do not create nitrite either, so they also reduce the potential for this by consuming some of the ammonia. If one plants heavily- much more than you will likely want to- you can dispense with cycling entirely and just start to stock. Normally this would not be 100% stocking at one go but you can get a lot of fish in faster than with fish in cycling, but not as fast as with fishless.

If you are dead set on doing a fish in, you can contact me via the site PM system and I am happy to work with you on it. I would much rather see you do it right and not risk harming fish than attempt it and make mistakes which have that result. However, I would way much prefer to see you go fishless.

I do not want to start a fight about fish in cycling here. I do not suggest nor recommend people use this method as I said above. However, that is a far cry from saying it can't be done without harming fish. If you would like to argue this I am prepared to do so in another thread using the available scientific research on the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite for for different fish.

 

[authmal]

If you want to do a fishless cycle they are not as awful as folks make out. For a long time this was the only way tanks were cycled and fish keepers knew how to do them properly. There are drawbacks to doing a fishless cycle however.

1. Most fish are not suitable.
2. It takes six months or more from start to full stocking.
3. It is unforgiving of mistakes- get it wrong and fish suffer.

Most people are not aware of the fact the the levels of ammonia or nitrite that can harm a fish are not universal numbers. Some fish can handle more ammonia and nitrite than others- this is a scientific fact. If you really want to go the fishless route, gouramis are not the proper fish- think zebra danios. You can swap out fish down the road as to reach the point where you will be slowly ramping up your stock.

I really do not want to get into a knock down drag out on this topic on the forums on how properly to cycle with with fish. Most people can only repeat a lot of the misinformation on this topic that now prevails.

Despite everything I have just said I will tell you that fishless is the far better route to go for the floowing reasons:
1. Its faster. You can have a fully cycled tank in under 2 months- often in as little as 5-6 weeks.
2. Its less work.
3. Mistakes kill or harm nothing, they just make it go slower.

Whichever route you choose, the one thing that helps with cycling, either kind, is seeding bacteria in some form. This can be done with filter media, substrate decor or plants from established tanks. The one drawback to this is you will also be getting any pathogens that might be in a donor tank. There area also a couple of bottled bacteria products one can use which will also help greatly. However, it is important to use the right ones.

The key to a good fish in cycling is to start small and ramp up slowly. You can think of it this way- the body mass of a fish is what you focus on. Once you get the cycle established for one or two small hardy fish, each addition must be done so as not to increase the bio-load on the bacteria by much more than 25% at a time. So look at the size of one zebra danio and then the size of a dwarf gourami. The gourami would have to to go in later on with some cycling fish coming out when you added it. You can not keep two males in a tank the size you plan to get.

As for live plants, they can help the cycle in two ways. The first is the will have some of the good bacteria you want on them. So they can prodvide some seeding. But also, plants consume ammonia. To the extant they do this, they reduce the amount of bacteria need to handle this chore. Plants do not create nitrite either, so they also reduce the potential for this by consuming some of the ammonia. If one plants heavily- much more than you will likely want to- you can dispense with cycling entirely and just start to stock. Normally this would not be 100% stocking at one go but you can get a lot of fish in faster than with fish in cycling, but not as fast as with fishless.

If you are dead set on doing a fish in, you can contact me via the site PM system and I am happy to work with you on it. I would much rather see you do it right and not risk harming fish than attempt it and make mistakes which have that result. However, I would way much prefer to see you go fishless.

I do not want to start a fight about fish in cycling here. I do not suggest nor recommend people use this method as I said above. However, that is a far cry from saying it can't be done without harming fish. If you would like to argue this I am prepared to do so in another thread using the available scientific research on the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite for for different fish.

What does the suitability of a fish have to do with a fishless cycle?

 

[TheLindseyPanda]

@authmal @ktrom13 @axelrod12 @myswtsins @Freshyfresh @Brian Bivens @TwoTankAmin
All-righty then. I think I am almost on track. Just a few more questions. How often, if ever, do you change out your filter media (as in buy new stuff)? It sounds as though you shouldn't, then you would loose your number one source of good bacteria. I will look into a 29, but I don't think that will be my final choice. I get that the bigger the better and all that, but I want to start pretty small and move from there. I am a pre-teen and still living with my parents, so they have a say as well, and they think the less water the better. It is a miracle I am getting a 20 at all. I have been saving for a while to jump into this, and have accumulated just enough to get a 20 with NICE equipment. I don't want to cheap out on anything important. That said, my funds will not be sufficient for a 29.
And before anyone freaks out over that last statement, I have an emergency fund, a quarantine tank (providing by a close friend who gave up the hobby), and a deal with my family. If something REALLY big happens, that my emergency fund will not cover, they will make up the rest of the cost provided that I pay them back within a reasonable amount of time. I have a fish-sitter nailed down for any trips, and will not even start the cycling process until I come home from my vacation (in two weeks). Needless to say, I am prepared, and responsible.
I am definitely interested in assassin snails. How many would be adequate for a 20 gallon? And will they need extra nutrition or care?
I again apologize for the hoard of questions...
Thanks to everyone BTW!!!

 

[FGS_Flying_High]

I think that TwoTankAmin typed "fishless" where they wanted "fish in" a few times in the first part and then they were actually meaning "fishless" in the second part where they put it.

 

[axelrod12]

@authmal @ktrom13 @axelrod12 @myswtsins @Freshyfresh @Brian Bivens @TwoTankAmin
All-righty then. I think I am almost on track. Just a few more questions. How often, if ever, do you change out your filter media (as in buy new stuff)? It sounds as though you shouldn't, then you would loose your number one source of good bacteria. I will look into a 29, but I don't think that will be my final choice. I get that the bigger the better and all that, but I want to start pretty small and move from there. I am a pre-teen and still living with my parents, so they have a say as well, and they think the less water the better. It is a miracle I am getting a 20 at all. I have been saving for a while to jump into this, and have accumulated just enough to get a 20 with NICE equipment. I don't want to cheap out on anything important. That said, my funds will not be sufficient for a 29.
And before anyone freaks out over that last statement, I have an emergency fund, a quarantine tank (providing by a close friend who gave up the hobby), and a deal with my family. If something REALLY big happens, that my emergency fund will not cover, they will make up the rest of the cost provided that I pay them back within a reasonable amount of time. I have a fish-sitter nailed down for any trips, and will not even start the cycling process until I come home from my vacation (in two weeks). Needless to say, I am prepared, and responsible.
I am definitely interested in assassin snails. How many would be adequate for a 20 gallon? And will they need extra nutrition or care?
I again apologize for the hoard of questions...
Thanks to everyone BTW!!!

Changing the filter media can depend on the filter or type of media you use. Many HOBs use cotton inserts for mechanical filtration that get clogged and reduce the flow of the filter significantly. Many people rinse them in old tank water during a water change but I've personally found that this doesn't work well for long and they need to be changed. However, most filters also have an additional form of media for the bacteria to grow on (biological filtration) that should never be replaced. It's still a good idea to monitor ammonia levels when you change the mechanical media though, sometimes tanks will experience a mini cycle while the bacteria reestablishes itself. Aquaclears use a coarse sponge that can be rinsed in tank water repeatedly and more effectively than the cotton inserts. Many people don't replace these until they begin to deteriorate.

I'll leave the assassin snail question to someone else. I like my snails so personally I've never kept or considered assassins.


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[ktrom13]

Changing filter media depends on what type of filter you get. I (and most others on here) would recommend an AquaClear filter. You rarely need to change out any media. I literally clean both on mine out just once a month and put everything back in. They are very versatile too. You can add or replace media to suit your needs. I understand that youre young and probably dont have a job so money is an issue. Im 18 almost 19 and dont have a job right now but i save money up by gathering loose change i find. Ive bought $150+ of equipment this way. Just a helpful little trick i learned

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[authmal]

Changing the filter media can depend on the filter or type of media you use. Many HOBs use cotton inserts for mechanical filtration that get clogged and reduce the flow of the filter significantly. Many people rinse them in old tank water during a water change but I've personally found that this doesn't work well for long and they need to be changed. However, most filters also have an additional form of media for the bacteria to grow on (biological filtration) that should never be replaced. It's still a good idea to monitor ammonia levels when you change the mechanical media though, sometimes tanks will experience a mini cycle while the bacteria reestablishes itself. Aquaclears use a coarse sponge that can be rinsed in tank water repeatedly and more effectively than the cotton inserts. Many people don't replace these until they begin to deteriorate.

I'll leave the assassin snail question to someone else. I like my snails so personally I've never kept or considered assassins.


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That's part of why AC series and C series filters (they're cheaper on Amazon, by a significant margin, usually) are so popular. In both cases, you have mechanical filtration (basically a sponge) that you clean out when the flow lessens (rinse and squeeze out in tank water that's been removed during your water change) and then there's a ceramic biomedia (basically some porous shape with high surface area that will be colonized with nitrifying bacteria) that you can rinse, if needed, just like the sponge. At most, I will dip it in to remove chunks of debris that managed to bypass the sponge, but I won't do both that and the sponge the same time, though. I don't use charcoal, because it needs to be replaced regularly to be effective. The filter will come with some. I'd hold on to it in case you need it to remove medicine from the water or something. I use Purigen, which is a chemical adsorbent that basically does the same thing charcoal does, but can be cleaned periodically. I've used the same Purigen in my 55 for 2 years, and I think I may need to look at replacing it in 2 more. It's a little more pricy up front, but $2-5/month or whatever adds up. You can get a 100ml pillow (sealed bag) of Purigen on Amazon for about $10.

Assassin snails are opportunistic carnivores. Larger ornamental snails should be safe, but smaller "pest" type snails are fair game. They'll eat algae, detritus and food scraps otherwise. You can probably head over to PetSmart and Petco and see if they have some "pest" snails. Petco will charge you one penny for each (goes to Petco Charities), PetSmart typically doesn't charge anything.

 

[FreshyFresh]

........ i save money up by gathering loose change i find. Ive bought $150+ of equipment this way. Just a helpful little trick i learned

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That's where all the change keeps going. Dang gatherers.