Stability???

[jpappy789]

Where's "The V"?

He has some pretty interesting literature on bacteria and how little they really need in order to survive when it comes to their metabolic rates.

Slappy: I would believe the claims of that corporation had Dr. Havonec not shown that Nitrobacter are not found in aquaria. Instead Nitrospira oxidize nitrite to nitrate.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/1/258

Unfortunately not being logged in on my school network I cannot read the entire article.

 

[GoldLenny]

OK.. there's been a few posts talking about the same questions so I'll just answer them all here.

First, as far as the Fritz product, I haven't looked at the details of their product, such as a MSDS sheet, in a while but from the snip posted, the reason their product probably doesn't work as advertised and not nearly as well as Bio-Spira, now being much improved and called Dr. Tim's One And Only, is because Nitrobacter is the WRONG bacteria. The three bacteria that do the nitrogen cycle in our aquariums, that Dr. Tim proved in peer-reviewed scientific stuides, are nitrosomonas, nitrosospira, and nitrospira bacteria.

Most of the other bottled bacteria like Stability, Cycle, etc., also have the wrong bacteria in them. Most of them have only nitrosomonas and nitrobacter, as that is what they thought was the right bacteria but thats why their products do NOT instantly cycle a tank.

BioSpira is still covered by patents and there are new patents either pending or passed for the new improved version called Dr. Tim's One And Only (and Tetra's SafeStart... got it right that time. lol), so it keeps the competition down in the U.S. I hear that Europe has another product that works the same as BioSpira worked but I haven't done much reading on it recently.

As far as how it stays alive, think about how nitrifying bacteria stays alive when a water way evaporates or is formed and the bacteria are airborne and being blown around until it finds another water source to call home and start growing a new colony. It's the same way we can get the nitrogen cycle going in our tanks without using a product like Dr. Tim's. Nitrifying bacteria, mold spores, etc., are all in the air all the time and will eventually find our tanks and start growing if we provide them with water and a food source... in the case of nitrifying bacteria, it's ammonia which is converted to nitrite by one bacteria and then converted to nitrate by the other bacteria. Dr. Tim has copies of his peer-reviewed studies posted on his website if you want to read the scientific data or facts... oh wait, that was another thread. LOL I haven't read the paper in a while so I can't quote from it by memory but Dr. Tim explained that in nature, the bacteria would form some kind of covering, like a cyst and go into a hibernative mode. He was able to simulate this using refrigeration in BioSpira but in order to make it more available, he had to get his laboratory grown bacteria to also grow this cyst type enclosure so it would last for months at room temperature and he has succeeded in doing this after many years.

 

[J double R]

Quoted directly from the abstract of the article linked above. Without being able to read the whole thing, this alone says a TON. Interesting, too.


"Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the

subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to other members of the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the

subdivision of the class Proteobacteria (e.g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in these samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina."

 

[jetajockey]

here's a snip from a Q&A with a tetra rep done a few months ago on another forum.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live.

Keep in mind that TSS does have a shelf life, it just doesn't have to be refrigerated. It is also sensitive to extreme temperatures.

And just as an FYI, even dr. tims doesn't require refrigeration anymore.

taken from

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/Blog_twitter.html

Nitrifying bacteria can live in a bottle: for awhile – many think that nitrifying bacteria cannot live in a bottle and will say the reason is because nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores like other bacteria. This is a half-truth. Nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores but that doesn’t mean they can’t last in a bottle (thing about it – if nitrifying bacteria could not survive poor conditions how would they have survived for millions of years?) They can live in a bottle but under optimal conditions the time period is about one year. The nitrifying bacteria don’t die in the bottle, their activity level drops and eventually it becomes so low that there is little measurable positive effect when they are poured into the aquarium water. Provided the nitrifying bacteria in the bottle were not subject to bad environmental conditions (see the next paragraph) they can last about 1 year in a bottle.

No special preservation chemical or substance has been demonstrated to extend this time period. Refrigerating the bacteria is the only thing that has been shown to measurably extend their shelf life.

Hope this helps.

 

[jpappy789]

LMAO

Well, apparently it does wonders if you actually scroll down and read the rest of the page. Here I was thinking they showed just the title (which was odd since at least the abstract is usually visible) but I guess I can see the whole thing

:hitting:

 

[Slappy*McFish]

Where's "The V"?

He has some pretty interesting literature on bacteria and how little they really need in order to survive when it comes to their metabolic rates.

Slappy: I would believe the claims of that corporation had Dr. Havonec not shown that Nitrobacter are not found in aquaria. Instead Nitrospira oxidize nitrite to nitrate.

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/1/258

Unfortunately not being logged in on my school network I cannot read the entire article.

Yes, I remember that article. I have it tucked away in my infinite number of aquarium related bookmarks. lol
Personally, I avoid any cycling products in a bottle with the exception of Biospira that I used out of curiosity when setting up my saltwater system a few years ago.
The article I posted was not intended to be taken as scientific data by any means, nor have I ever used the product in question. I just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. I would never recommend such a product to inoculate an aquarium with nitrifying bacteria to aid the 'cycle.'
IMO, these products may have a better use in aiding the breakdown of wastes. Though, other 'manual' methods would be just as effective.

 

[J double R]

Okay, even in this no-refrigeration formula that "Dr tim" has concocted, what is the bacteria suspended in? RO/DI? I'm not understanding the whole shelf life deal without some sort of sustenance or temperature manipulation. A whole year? I don't care who it is.. I'm not buying it (the idea) unless I see HOW it works.

 

[jetajockey]

Okay, even in this no-refrigeration formula that "Dr tim" has concocted, what is the bacteria suspended in? RO/DI? I'm not understanding the whole shelf life deal without some sort of sustenance or temperature manipulation. A whole year? I don't care who it is.. I'm not buying it (the idea) unless I see HOW it works.

I'm not a salesman or spokesman for any of these products, I just know that through personal testing, TSS works. I assume dr tims works based on his personal history with Biospira, but I've yet to test it.

If you email them they may answer your questions for you, if it isn't proprietary information.

TSS has a very good track record in comparison to all of the other big box brands (user review), so it must be doing something right.

The only product I've ever used that gave a real 'instant' cycle was the seeded sponge filter from AngelsPlus. The concept of transferring established media from one tank to another is pretty commonplace, they just happened to have a method to market it.

 

[jpappy789]

Yes, I remember that article. I have it tucked away in my infinite number of aquarium related bookmarks. lol
Personally, I avoid any cycling products in a bottle with the exception of Biospira that I used out of curiosity when setting up my saltwater system a few years ago.
The article I posted was not intended to be taken as scientific data by any means, nor have I ever used the product in question. I just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion. I would never recommend such a product to inoculate an aquarium with nitrifying bacteria to aid the 'cycle.'
IMO, these products may have a better use in aiding the breakdown of wastes. Though, other 'manual' methods would be just as effective.

I understand.

Even the whole breaking down of waste things seems total garbage to me.

If the autotrophic, nitrogen feasting bacteria can be inoculated in our tank then so can the heterotrophic bacteria. Just another unnecessary product.

 

[GoldLenny]

Okay, even in this no-refrigeration formula that "Dr tim" has concocted, what is the bacteria suspended in? RO/DI? I'm not understanding the whole shelf life deal without some sort of sustenance or temperature manipulation. A whole year? I don't care who it is.. I'm not buying it (the idea) unless I see HOW it works.

The patented processes that Dr. Tim invented when developing BioSpira have been scientifically studied, peer-reviewed and published in one or more scientific journals. He has many of the studies on his website. Go read them. http://www.DrTimsAquatics.com. You could also email him for more info. He has his email address on his Contact Us page the last time I looked. I'm not sure if all of the science involved in his improved version of BioSpira, now called Dr. Tim's One And Only, have been published but if they have, I'm sure he has some of the white papers on his website.