steelerfan's 30 Gallon Breeder Journal/Build

thanks a bunch for your time and input bud.

this started at the begining of april. does a bloom last 8+ weeks?

not gonna add ammonia as i like "melvin" as the wife named the shrimp.

just was dang frustrated today. don't know how close i came to clicking the buy button on that rock on divers den tonight.

if the carpet had been in i think it would have been a done deal.

the very least i can use the bacteria and cycle my qt quicker.

what can be feeding this bad bacteria though bud?

the rock has been powerhead cleaned into separate water.

can it have that much bad stuff still in it, and if so will all it take is it leaching out and having my rowa phos finally grab it all in time and water changes of course.

RC is good but there are so many posters there that it is tough to get a lot of responses.

posted a while ago. maybe i will bump thread in the morning.

here's an idea,

purchase some zoes from dd before fish.

dip them, observe in the qt and then add into main tank.

the liverock the zoes come in on may provide a little help, but i think the dip kills alot of the good stuff too, no?

grasping.....at....straws......why...did...i....start....this??? :-)

greech said:
K so thinking this through, you are considering adding nitrifying bacteria to a tank that is already cycled that appears to be experiencing a heterotrophic bacteria bloom? As much as I think diversification is going to help, you already (at least you should) have these bacteria in your system through the cycling process. It shouldn't hurt to try as all you will do is boost your bacteria bed but there is no way I would add ammonia chloride to an established tank with inverts. If you do anything at all to introduce ammonia add a fish or remove your inverts and dose the bacteria and ammonia. Seriously don't add the ammonia to induce a 2ppm cycle as those instructions mentioned. Again you should already have the bacteria necessary to process this ammonia but how quickly is the question. I really fear it will not end well for your CUC and shrimp if you dose the AC.

If we are right and this is a bacteria bloom, a food source MUST be present to sustain the numbers you are seeing. The one thing that was mentioned (around the 6:50 mark) that seems to confirm something I mentioned a while back is that these blooms are more likely the result of heterotrophic bacteria which cannot synthesize their own food so there must be a food source somewhere. There is no way feeding a pinch of pellets each day would be enough to support those numbers. The bacteria giving your grief and the bacteria you are adding (and already have) don't compete for the same food source. The heterotrphs are going to eat the organics and break them down into ammonia, etc so that the nitrifying bacteria can eat that.

Did a quick search on RC on this product and found this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2004473&highlight=dr+tims

At this point I am just about as frustrated with this as you are :). I completely understand your position and yes I have seen plenty of examples of tanks set up with completely dry rock and sand without these issues but I also think over the course of adding frags and corals that come on small pieces of LR rubble (or even larger pieces) the diversity finds its way into their systems.

I think I would bump your post on RC with some updated info. Someone over there has the info you need to address this. You may want to PM Amp or Ace on here and see if they can chime in. Really wish I could help more on this.
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Hey guys. If the rock was totally dry then how is there a food source in the rock? Maybe something in the sandbed? Here is a dumb question...you are sure the tank has cycled and remained cycled?
 
I just read through your thread again. When I did the shrimp my ammonia went up to like 6.0 or higher overnight. My tank is only a 29 gallon though. The one shrimp was in the tank for 4 days. I could not stand the smell... lol... I had 15 pounds of live rock in the tank with some dry rock. On day five the ammonia was 0. Don't remember what the nitrites were at but by the 7th day I added my first clown.

Your ammonia did not get very high from what I read. You even had to add more shrimp. Makes me wonder about the cycle...
 
Had the same concerns Benson about the degree of the cycle. From what I know and have reserached it appears steeler has a prolonged heterotrophic bacteria bloom. These are bacteria that start the breakdown of organics into ammonia>nitrites providing a food source for the nitrifying bacteria. The question that steeler and I area having trouble with is what is sustaining the population of these heterotrophs for such a long period of time. I though that maybe the balance of bacteria might be off (geeting back to your point about a the cycle) but if my understanding is correct, the heterotrophs and nitrifiers should not be competing for the same food source. There has to be some significant organics in steelers system but if his testing shows no ammonia or other nutrients then that isn't adding up either as organic matter sufficient to sustain this bloom for this long surely would be polluting the tank as it breaks down (unless there is also a very large population of ammonia and nitrate oxidizers as well).

Bottom line is if this is a heterotrophoc bacterial bllom there has to be orgnanics in the system to feed/sustain them and the only way to combat it would be removal of the organics. I really sustepct that something is bound up in those rocks from BRS (not bashing them they provide good rock to a lot of people).
 
hi benson,

i had questioned that as well as i would think 1.5 jumbo size raw shrimp should have really spiked my tank, but it never got past .5, unless of course my test kit was off and it was higher?

my tank only 1 gallon bigger than yours so i think it wold be the same.

if indeed ammonia only did get to .5 though, i think this cleaner and snails would still be a small enough bio load where i would not get another spike, but i really am just at witts end with not knowing for sure what is going on.

again, if it is a time thing i am good with it, but as of now it is not letting up so i don't know if it is just wasting time without taking action.


Benson said:
I just read through your thread again. When I did the shrimp my ammonia went up to like 6.0 or higher overnight. My tank is only a 29 gallon though. The one shrimp was in the tank for 4 days. I could not stand the smell... lol... I had 15 pounds of live rock in the tank with some dry rock. On day five the ammonia was 0. Don't remember what the nitrites were at but by the 7th day I added my first clown.

Your ammonia did not get very high from what I read. You even had to add more shrimp. Makes me wonder about the cycle...
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made up my mind that come 7-4-11 if it is still going on i will put a piece of the dry rock in my 10 gallon qt and put snails and cleaner in there and i am going to order the next 25 pounds of cured live rock that shows up on divers den.

the frustration i am feeling is driving me nuts right now.

just don't know what else to do.

just dont know why the rock was fine when i put it in on 2-4 and fine until april.

greech said:
Had the same concerns Benson about the degree of the cycle. From what I know and have reserached it appears steeler has a prolonged heterotrophic bacteria bloom. These are bacteria that start the breakdown of organics into ammonia>nitrites providing a food source for the nitrifying bacteria. The question that steeler and I area having trouble with is what is sustaining the population of these heterotrophs for such a long period of time. I though that maybe the balance of bacteria might be off (geeting back to your point about a the cycle) but if my understanding is correct, the heterotrophs and nitrifiers should not be competing for the same food source. There has to be some significant organics in steelers system but if his testing shows no ammonia or other nutrients then that isn't adding up either as organic matter sufficient to sustain this bloom for this long surely would be polluting the tank as it breaks down (unless there is also a very large population of ammonia and nitrate oxidizers as well).

Bottom line is if this is a heterotrophoc bacterial bllom there has to be orgnanics in the system to feed/sustain them and the only way to combat it would be removal of the organics. I really sustepct that something is bound up in those rocks from BRS (not bashing them they provide good rock to a lot of people).
Click to expand...
 
hi benson, thanks for checking in.

wondering if i found my problem?

did my water change today and noticed about 1 inch of water on the inside of my glass thermometer.

figuring if water found its way in that whatever junk in the thermo could find it's ay out.

obviously if it was real bad stuff in there i doubt my shrimp and snails would be too happy, but wondering if whatever in there was an organic maybe causing that type of bloom i was/am getting?

not sure how long it was like that but from me pushing it onto the aquaclear daily from checking i put a small crack in the thermo, so again i never noticed until today.

i do run real polyfilter which has not changed any color for chemical removal, and i also run carbon.

is this something that could cause my issue?

greech, you care to weigh in on this?

BTW, carpet is in so i hope to never have to drain that tank again :-)
 
Hey steeler,

If you know the brand of the thermoeter you shuld be able to google it and determie its contents. I donlt think this is going to be a health issue unless for some reason the company that made your thermo used mercury as the indicator solution. I highly doubt that and would imagine your tank would be devoid of life (or severely mutated) by now.

Most thermometers now use ethyl alcohol which should do nothing hamful but it would be a food source for bacteria. This might be part of the problem especially if it was a slow leak but there isn't much in there. I am going to be beside myself if that solves it!

Congrats on the carpet! Don't spill any water :).
 
greech said:
Hey steeler,

If you know the brand of the thermoeter you shuld be able to google it and determie its contents. I donlt think this is going to be a health issue unless for some reason the company that made your thermo used mercury as the indicator solution. I highly doubt that and would imagine your tank would be devoid of life (or severely mutated) by now.

Most thermometers now use ethyl alcohol which should do nothing hamful but it would be a food source for bacteria. This might be part of the problem especially if it was a slow leak but there isn't much in there. I am going to be beside myself if that solves it!

Congrats on the carpet! Don't spill any water :).
Click to expand...

hi greech,

kind of thinking that if there was mercury in there everything would be dead by now with polyfilter or not.

i am really hoping that was the issue, even though i doubt it was, but just grasping at straws here.

on the bright side the haze is down enough so i can see the back of the tank :)

thanks on the carpet.

the wife is happy, and if the wife is happy....everyone is happy ;)
 
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