Those poor fish...

Not quite that drastic...

Hi,

Actually, that's all quite a few people have done. ;) Just dump in the sand, seed with whatever comes in on the live rock (plus the purchase of some crabs - a common item in either setup). Our trigger tank had only two pieces of rock - only for shelter, not anaerobic bacteria which live rock actually does precious little to afford due to the flow of oxygenated water in/around the rock. There are also tanks with no live rock. Indeed, it's more than safe to say that live rock is not necessary for a sandbed to provide all the biological filtration - this is because sufficient folks have tanks with no live rock to affirm this.

Live rock has plenty of benefits/advantages, but being "necessary" for the success of a sandbed is definitely not true.

And as an aside, one doesn't actually need any sand-stirrers if one gently "mixes up" the sandbed in various portions at a time. There are all sorts of ways to do thigns successfully, and that's not to say crushed coral can't be a successful method. But it's a heckuva lot more work than a DSB if ya ask me! :)
 
<hijack>
Monty! LTNS dooder =) How'd that cross country tour turn out?
</hijack>
 
HIJACK BACK AT YA!

Corax: Don't want to entirely hijack the thread... But I liked Kansas so much that I finally achieved my dream of self-exile and escaped from Kalifornia. I know live in Ellsworth, KS - but am temporarily back in Kalifornia fighting for custody of my son... Send me an email if ya want details, otherwise just smile and wish me well! :D :D

Let me tie this back into the thread... I escaped the large granulation of the Crushed California during a "citizen change" (like a water change) ;) and am grateful that I was not in a more compacted anaerobic area (as are so many people) to be simply consumed by bacteria and live the rest of my life out as a gas, waiting for my entrance to the Pearly Gates at the appropriate "surface soul exchange." :D :D

Okay, so that might be a stretch... But at least I tied in some appropriate words! :D
 
Thanks for responding Fish Whisperer...

I guess I am really confused about the DSB method. I am really glad to hear that you can remove a CC bed and replace with sand...especially without adding a large amount, or even any, LR to seed it.

I am also really glad to hear that you do not necessarily need inverts that live within the DSB to stir it up.....I had always thought that once the DSB was in place it was considered very bad to manually stir it up.

I guess now that I think about it more, it does make more sense. I have a CC bed in my FO tank, with no LR. My tank has no Ammonia or nitrite, but does have Nitrate. Like others with CC beds, I am constantly fighting the detritus build up on top of my CC bed. With the detritus build up, I grow green cyano algea on an almost daily basis.

Now from what I have read in this thread, I have this problem for two reasons:

1. the detritus is able to settle into my CC. Even with vigorous water circulation, the detritus still accumulates and breaks down within my CC. THis breakdown feeds my micro algea.

2. becasue of the large CC granual size, aerated water is constantly moving through , which does not allow for the anerobic bacteria to grow, which results in high nitrates.

So, looks like a good start for me will be to remvoe my CC and repalce it with sand. The sand does not need to be "live" because I am aiming for the growth of anaerobic bacteria first and foremost to reduce my nitrates. Also with the sand in place, it will form a "shield", trapping most detritus on top, which will be easily removed by crabs and brisk water circulation via the filters.

Can you please let me know if this makes sense to you!
 
I'll try!

Hi,

First, I'm going to speak in extremely non-scientific terms. It makes the same point and runs less a chance of confusion - Understanding is the goal here, not impressive language! ;)

So, in simple terms: I'd like to sort of establish two types of detritus, probably not "technically" correct, but at least understandable from where I see your concern.

Lets call the first detritus "uneaten food". Now, be it a CC bed, or DSB, this always has a chance to get eaten by attentive crabs, although it is certainly logical that if it is not worked down into a CC bed it is easier to get eaten by not only crabs, but also fish. So, your reasoning is indeed correct. It is easier for food to get eaten in a "second pass" if it is laying out in the open, or sitting in a ledge of rock. The deeper it gets into the CC, the greater the chance of it eroding into what is the second type of "detritus."

We'll call that decayed food and fish poop. ;) This is the stuff that hasn't made it into the food chain, or in fact has made it all the way through the food chain. ;) Let's consider this to be the group that will "turn into nitrates." This will be what we know as the last stage of "ammonia-nitrite-nitrate".

You are again correct in that a DSB has been proven far more efficient at breaking this nitrate down into a nitrate gas. The anaerbic layers of a DSB are much closer to the surface of the detritus, and it does what we simpletons like to refer as "sucking down" the detritus into this no-oxygen layer to convert it to the nitrate gas.

SO, do I suggest swapping out a CC bed in favor of sand? I certainly do recommend to all new tanks, and I'm even for swapping it out of established tanks - for no other reason than ease of maintenance. I'm not saying "one method is better than the other," although I won't be totally spineless. ;) I'll say one is certainly easier than the other! :D I also believe it establishes a very stable ecosystem, able to handle pretty impressive decay without a rise in nitrates.

I'm going to "paste" an article I wrote. This was in response to a similar discussion in which someone suggested I "write out a method" of what I was talking about - "stirring" the sandbed. Here she goes!

********************************

Hi all:

I was mentioning a “worry-fix” in an online thread about sandbeds. The thread voiced concern about the “buildup” of toxic gases within the sandbed. Whether the concern is valid or not is not what this is about. This is about NOT worrying whether you will have a buildup of gases in your own tank.

To accomplish? Well, I prefer a 3/4" tube (the best types are the clear ones which can often be found right in the fish department of a big lfs to slide over fluorescent lights tubes). Think of it as a type of "precision" drilling method. You would first insert the tube down through the water and straight to the bottom of the sandbed - ALL the way to the bottom of the tank. Then, the smallest diameter rod or dowel can be inserted through the tube. You can then rotate the smaller dowel inserted through the large diameter tube and poke/prod until you've sufficiently "stirred up" that portion of the sandbed into which the larger tube has been inserted. A rigid hollow tube can even be used in the larger tube, and you could lightly blow through it or use a small air pump to aerate that portion of the sandbed into which you’ve inserted the larger tube.

This keeps the slurry confined to an exacting diameter of the sandbed - with absolutely no detrimental effects to the rest of the sandbed/tank. It accomplishes complete "stirring/mixing" of just that portion of the sandbed you are stirring. Of course, the amount of the sandbed that you work on should be proportional to the surface area of the sandbed itself. In other words, you wouldn't "drill" any more than 10% of the surface area at any one "operation" just to be safe. I always like to err on the side of caution, so perhaps a person could stir up the complete sandbed with no problems. That's not what this procedure is for, however. It is designed for that person who is concerned with the so-called "buildup" of gases in their sandbed and who doesn't want to fret about it. I personally don't lay any belief to a sandbed "self-destructing" if it is not stirred. I have not experienced it, and I don't believe my "drilling" process is a mandatory part of any maintenance procedure. I must allow such a disclaimer! LOL. It is, however, a process for those who might be concerned, or who are experiencing any sort of "crusting" on the surface of their sandbed. Some folks want a worry-free "fix" to some of the "dire warnings" mentioned by the "sandbed doomsayers" lol!! This would be just the procedure to "relieve" a sandbed of such death-threats. Again, I don't believe everyone should rush out and do this, and am not suggesting that anyone NEEDS to do this for a healthy sandbed. This is just a procedure to counter any worries about insufficient gas expense in a DSB (deep sandbed).

NOTE: This basically is a procedures which "aerates" the sandbed, and as we need our anoxic areas with no oxygen to process nitrates, one shouldn't go about "drilling" their whole sandbed in any sort of frenzy. This is why I again stress that 10% poses absolutely zero problem to the functioning of the sandbed and the nitrates it processes. So, the question might be: How OFTEN can I do this? Well, again I like to be absolutely sure, and 10% rotated once a month through the sandbed is more than safe.

Again, this might be an absolutely unnecessary "fix" to a problem that may not even exist. Some folks, however, do want some sort of "insurance" against all the dire warnings a few folks have mentioned about this so-called "death" of a DSB. This clearly “disrupts” any buildup without disrupting any majority of the functioning sandbed.

**************************************

I think the sandbed swap is outlined here in the archives somewhere, but it is a method which really holds your hand through the process. I encourage you to NOT take any shortcuts. We've done this a lot, and even when we think we are "experienced enough" to not keep a printout at hand... we've invariably screwed up! :eek:

So, even if you think your sandbed might be "building up" too much "detritus" because you don't have enough critters, you can always "maintain" it ever now and then with the stirring method outlined above. I'd like to again stress that I am not establishing any sort of "timeline" or "required maintenance" for a DSB. ;) The above just puts to rest any QUESTIONS of it building up. A lot of folks were worried that their sandbed might be building up. There were things like "Old Tank Syndrome" being tossed about. Well, by the above stirring, you can logically see that there is no possibility of a sandbed "building up" and getting ready to "destroy" your tank. ;)

As for seeding it, I covered that in the Sandbed Swap article. Again, I don't make claims as to "necessity" just that it does fulfill that niche. ;) I've seeded tanks with nothing but live rock and had no problems. I've also added diverse sand from other tanks to see if I got "more diverse." Not to my naked eye, although I'm sure it's one of those things that could "only help."

Well, hope this helps out a bit. :)
 
Sounds about right to me, though I would add some Nassarius or Cerith snails (depending on your stocking of course) to stir the sand bed to avoid gas pockets. When you add the sand, put down about 1/2" first, then put your rocks in and make sure they are stable. Then put the rest of the sand around them.. Sand can settle, and putting rocks right on top can lead to toppling.

Monty, custody? That doesn't sound right at all =( Sounds lilke I've missed a chapter.. Drop me a PM if you feel like sharing it with an old bird =)
 
Marvin,
Sorry for the late response. Haven't been on here as much this week; been busy. I started out with sand, no CC. I bought the live sand from the LFS and the playsand from Lowes, and put them both in at the same time. The playsand on bottom (forming a grey level) and the live sand (aragonite) on top (forming the nice white level). After the sand was in, filled the tank with R/O water, ran it about a week until my LR came in through the mail, then added that it. Guess from reading this post I made an error in adding the rock after the sand for stability purposes, however, I don't have it stacked higher than half the height of the tank, and I was careful in how I placed it so that pieces can't really "fall" off of one another. Kinda like building with Lego. Oh well, too late now. I've been in the process of cycling the tank now. Got control of the ammonia through frequent large water changes, nitrates are still a b****. Just waiting it out now. Got a couple of turbo snails in there, to try and combat the brown algea that is now beginning to grow on everything. Will just wait that out too. Hopefully soon my LR will jumpstart and grow some beautiful things. Anyway, as for pics, I had a friend with a digital camera come over and take some, I'm just waiting on him to send them to me so I can post them. :D
 
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