Those poor fish...

  • Get the NEW AquariaCentral iOS app --> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1227181058 // Android version will be out soon!
Am I too late???

This may be way too late, but I was "perusing" and came across this. ;)

I'm in a crunch to catch some shut-eye, but wanted to briefly chime in as to CC being "as effective." Crushed coral is not as effective, given the practical usage of it as a substrate. This is because there is simply too much aerobic bacteria churning out nitrates in the upper levels of the CC. In other words, the crud collects in the upper levels of the CC where there is oxygenated water, and thus there is not a complete breakdown of the nitrates into gas. Rather, the crud (simply stated) just decays and we have what is known as a "nitrate factory."

We have seen that with sand this is not the case. This is for the very simple reason of granule size. It is not that "crushed coral is bad," it is that the diameter of the average granule is WAY larger than that of sand, and so we don't have the "compacting" ratio with CC that we do with sand. We need anaerobic bacteria to break the nitrates into a gas. We get this anaerobic bacteria readily with a sandbed, but again, it's simply not practical with crushed coral. A good friend, Rob Toonen achieved a "balance" (by this, I mean a good biological filtration setup) but I believe it was with a depth of 22 INCHES of crushed coral. :eek: This is what I mean by "not practical." And this does not mean that if we simply had a 22" CC substrate it would "work." The crud (waste) needs to get drawn down into the anaerobic layers to get processed. If we don't have anything to accomplish that, again - we'd just have crud being churned into nitrates and released into the water column. The decay must be processed by anaerobic bacteria to transform into a nitrate gas wherein the ultimate "by-product" can be released via the gaseous exchange at the surface of the tank.

When this doesn't happen, we have one major nitrate factory. There are precious few people around who will remember me "trying" to make the crushed coral substrate work... I was applying the whole "grain-size-ratio" concept - but it just wasn't working. When I was jawing about this with Rob at one of the marine conferences out here he told me about the 22" substrate that was "successful." Again, how practical is THAT for most of us?

Anyway, I tried for about a year and a half when sandbeds were leading the cutting edge into biological filtration, and I no doubt marked some of the highest nitrate readings possible. :D Indeed, it was often joked that there were no test kits to MEASURE my nitrates, as I was always rapidly off the charts. Dale will remember!! :D This was not bad, though, because it helped lend some "real-time" credence to the issues of nitrates being "bad" for our tanks. There's nothing like actual experience to answer that question, and I never lost a fish! But nitrates are usually an indication that most corals/inverts will not fare well in such a system. I can not attest with any credibility on this issue, because my lighting was no doubt insufficient - and so I couldn't isolate any one cause as culprit for my "non-coral" environment at the time. ;)

Anyway, we made the switch to Carib Sea's "Special Grade" reef sand... As Ron Shimek has aptly called it... wonder grunge A pretty big "swap" and nitrates were screaming back in no time. That was it... That was the time for REAL SAND!!!! ;) And so it was that with no other change than a sandbed swap, the crazy nitrate problem was put to rest. Sure, the swap can be a pain, but I did an article which has helped a few folks out with the whole process - and a step-by-step makes it far less painful. ;) It was a real learning experience, but hopefully I helped address the issue of a crushed coral substrate being as effective.

In summation, there are many ways to deal with nitrates, but there's no doubt that the most convenient way is to do so naturally, without the need/maintenance of mechanical filtration. What other filter allows us to be so "hands-off"? Most nitrate-processing mechanical filters have mediums which must be maintained/cleaned/changed. Sandbeds can go go go!!! :D There were a few reports of a "sandbed exodus" because a few people experienced disasters in their tanks. I can tell you, and I'm sure anyone with a degree of self-ponderance can concur, that if sandbeds were "time-bombs" then they'd be time-bombs for everyone. We've had sandbeds processing nutrients ranging from heavy bioloads to minimal.. and there are many on record spanning well over a decade - some have reached 22 years!!!

Anyway, I was probably one of the last of the "old school" to convert to sandbeds from a mantra of "crushed coral," and I dare say I'll be one of the staunchest supporters, having definitely learned the hard way!!!! But it was a great learning experience.... Hopefully I passed some on!!! Cheers, and hi to all... (been a while, huh? :D )
 

redpaulhus

AC Members
Apr 26, 2002
45
0
0
Boston, MA
Another reason most LFS sell lots of CC -- they use lots of CC.

In the display tanks its often not feasable to setup a DSB - so we have CC. Every week I take out all of the CC from an entire row of tanks, and soak it in bleach for a week.
I then take de-clorinated CC (pulled out of a tank last week) and add them to the tanks that are now substrate less.

I THEN go thru and manually scrub the CC in all the other tanks (pick up handful of CC, grind in hand to rub off algae, repeat ad nauseum) until it looks nice and clean. Not to mention vac vac vac...
Of course customers come in and constantly compliment us\me on the tanks (we're part of a chain, and one of the few stores that looks good I guess).

Funniest part -- we don't even sell the CC we use (coarse stuff) - we sell small bags of CC and sand. Customers get mad at me when i recommend sand rather than CC becuase they want what we use !!
 

cybball

AC Members
Dec 23, 2003
56
0
0
Des Moines, IA
Visit site
I'm moving in 1 1/2 weeks. I'm using CC now and am slowly switching my tank from Fish Only to LR and Corals. My lighting will be upgraded, but thought I would change my CC to DSB. I've heard the Home Depot suggestion. If going that route, is the DSB going to be the brown sand, or do they sell the nice white stuff? I like the look of the white stuff they use in my local shops. When I switch, can I change over all of it at once, or will that really screw up the balance of the tank?
 

Dale W.

Formerly known as "Reefscape"
Oct 7, 1998
944
0
16
61
Koloa, Kauai, Hawaii
www.TheKOR.org
Monty, You just kill me :D

"This may be way too late, but I was "perusing" and came across this.

I'm in a crunch to catch some shut-eye, but wanted to briefly chime in as to CC being "as effective." "

Yah, pretty brief.

It is good to see you back here bud. I owe you an e-mail and I will get that off to you soon. Benn really swamped lately.

Keep on smiling bud and we all love your brief comments here on the boards :dance
 

as40

Give it to us raw and wriggling!
Oct 12, 2003
224
0
0
Ventura, CA 93003
Visit site
cybball,

I'm here in southern Hell, ur, I mean, California, and I just recently set my tank up with a DSB. I ended up getting a 50 pound bag from Lowes (same thing as Home Depot) of play sand, which looked very white and nice when it was dry. I used 45 pounds of it at the bottom of my tank, and on top layered a thicker amount of 80 pounds of aragonite "live" sand from the LFS. Definately, the aragonite sand was more costly, but it supposedly buffers the water better and looks much nicer. The playsand turned from white to grey in my tank once it was wet, so keep that in mind. The aragonite stayed white. So if you can find cheap aragonite sand, I'd stick with that.
 

cybball

AC Members
Dec 23, 2003
56
0
0
Des Moines, IA
Visit site
My local shop told me that they use a combo of CC and sand. They said to mix it around 1/2 and 1/2. I really wanted to go with sand, but don't want to screw up my tank by throwing out all the CC for new sand. Just a little confused. I hear different things from everyone I talk to. I like the nice white of the sand and hear it's better for the tank in the long run. What would happen with mixing 1/2 and 1/2?
 
I wouldn't... Here's why:

The most sought-after benefit of a DSB is the formation of anaerobic bacterium to convert nitrates to a gas, whereupon they are released from the tank is part of the gaseous surface-exchange. In simple terms, the sandbed processes nitrates, and is only efficient at doing so if there's no oxygen where this "conversion" takes place. By using crushed coral, even with the sand, you create an environment where there's enough room for water to "seep" in/around - and with that water comes oxygen. That's because the granule size of the crushed coral is so much larger than that of sand, and you don't achieve the "compact" layering that you do with just sand. HTH :)
 

Marvin

MyPetPugMilo
Dec 17, 2003
112
0
0
Irvine, CA
Visit site
Question is for AS40.

Did you start off with the sand from lowes or move from CC to DSB?

I currently have CC but wonder if i should make the move.

Also, do you have pics of your tank? I would love to see how it came out.
 

Apone

AC Members
Dec 8, 2003
26
0
0
Massachusetts
Visit site
I think one issue between the DSB/live rock people and the CC/

wetdry filter people is that there is a lot more to this issue

than just which substrate is better.....

For those who use a DSB and LR, they rely on the anerobic

bacteria living in both the sand and LR to remove nitrate. Now

just dumping play sand into your tank does not mean this will

work. THere are a few assumed standards when someone recommends

the use of a DSB:

1.You have a healthy supply of invertebrates living in your DSB

to "stir" it up, ensuring a healthy DSB. During water changes,

you do not manually stir up a DSB like you would a CC bed. Doing

so disrupts the anaerobic processes and negates the effects fo

the DSB.

2. You have a large amount of LR to supply the invertebrates

needed and break up wastes , or you add invertebrates manually

yourself.

3. You have a Q tank and you do not medicate your display tank

when there is ICH or other parasite infections present. THis is

because copper and other similar medications will kill

invertbrates, the same critters that a DSB needs.

So as you can see, having a DSB requires a few other steps, that

not all aquarists want to go through. Not everyone decides to

include invertebrates and LR in their tank and not all aquarists

maintain a separate Q tank - they medicate their display tank

when needed.

Now I am not saying one way is good or bad, I am only trying to

point out that there is more to this debate than just DSB vs CC.

When I frst started I ran into the same issues that other people

on this subject had....Which opinion do I go with? Even if you

read Fenner's book, he does not dismiss the use of CC with a wet

dry filter and dead coral skeletons. In fact, he has included

this type of tank in much detai. Granted he states that there are

better methods such as LR and DSB, but he does not fully discount

other filter types.
 
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store