To change or Not to change that is the question...
- Thread starter Dochere
- Start date
It's funny you say that vfrex, I saw a unit at one point that allowed you to do that. It seemed to hang on the back of the tank and would some how remove water at the same time fresh water was being put in. I can't remember what it was called or where i saw it but it looked pretty neat if it worked...
I have a Nitrate test kit now thanks to this forum, I picked it up last week. My levels are perfectly fine.
I also have a python. I use it to put water in my tank, works well. I don't need it to suck anything out of the gravel though as I would need something in the gravel first.
Does it take allot of chemicals to breed discus???
Do you think they (the fish) know that there are all of those chemicals in there?
RUGF and UGF promote bacterial growth in the substrate. The water flows through the substrate, carrying with it all of the dissolved wastes (ammonia and nitrites are liquid in your tank--not solid). The bacteria thrive where there's more current pushing those wastes as well as oxygen past them. Short of stuffing the substrate with antibiotics, there is no way for you to inhibit this growth.
Fish can detect their environment. Yes, they know those chemicals are in the water. Think of walking into a room with a cat box that hasn't been cleaned for weeks. You can smell it, right? Or, how about walking into a room that was just steam cleaned--you can still smell the cleaners, right? Same thing with fish. Just as the smell of paint will give some people headaches, chemicals in water can cause aversion in fish. Studies have documented fish avoiding areas where toxic chemicals build up. Salmon find their way back to the birthing waters via the smell of those waters.
I do regular water changes on all my tanks. The planted tanks can go weeks without a change and no tests will show up akilter. I do water changes because I enjoy it, and believe it helps my fish prosper. I also think that the fewer chemicals Iuse, not only am I saving myself some money, but it's better for the fish as well.
Fish can detect their environment. Yes, they know those chemicals are in the water. Think of walking into a room with a cat box that hasn't been cleaned for weeks. You can smell it, right? Or, how about walking into a room that was just steam cleaned--you can still smell the cleaners, right? Same thing with fish. Just as the smell of paint will give some people headaches, chemicals in water can cause aversion in fish. Studies have documented fish avoiding areas where toxic chemicals build up. Salmon find their way back to the birthing waters via the smell of those waters.
I do regular water changes on all my tanks. The planted tanks can go weeks without a change and no tests will show up akilter. I do water changes because I enjoy it, and believe it helps my fish prosper. I also think that the fewer chemicals Iuse, not only am I saving myself some money, but it's better for the fish as well.
1) I would imagine that the fish know that there are chemicals in the water. Think about when you take a deep breath in a city. Take the same deep breath out in the country. Fish breath too.
2) I know of an automatic water change system. Don't really like it though. Not yet at least. Picture this for a water change though...
This is how I understood it anyway. Stick a hose into a pipe under your tank (that pipe leads to the tubing for your canister filter). The other end of the pipe leads to the bottom of the tank (thus, the tank is drilled). Ordinarilly, the water will flow into the canister, the water will be filtered, and the canister will send the water back into the tank. But when you stick the hose in the spigot, it flows into the hose. Of course, you'll have the hose outside or in some kind of drain. Voila, water flows out until you take off the hose. Since the hole is at the bottom of the tank, detrius in the gravel also flows out. Then you use the python to fill the tank back up...
Poof, easy water change, little to no getting wet, faster than most.
NO spending water on expensive chemicals
NO dabbling in controversial issues
NO excuses
go build one today
2) I know of an automatic water change system. Don't really like it though. Not yet at least. Picture this for a water change though...
This is how I understood it anyway. Stick a hose into a pipe under your tank (that pipe leads to the tubing for your canister filter). The other end of the pipe leads to the bottom of the tank (thus, the tank is drilled). Ordinarilly, the water will flow into the canister, the water will be filtered, and the canister will send the water back into the tank. But when you stick the hose in the spigot, it flows into the hose. Of course, you'll have the hose outside or in some kind of drain. Voila, water flows out until you take off the hose. Since the hole is at the bottom of the tank, detrius in the gravel also flows out. Then you use the python to fill the tank back up...
Poof, easy water change, little to no getting wet, faster than most.
NO spending water on expensive chemicals
NO dabbling in controversial issues
NO excuses
go build one today
Out of curiousity, how big is this tank and how many/what types of fish are in it? I know that larger bodies of water have more potential to become a stable ecosystem, so I could see this working very well for larger tanks but not for standard 10 gallons.
With the list of chemicals you're putting in your tank, I bet you're the LFS's favorite customer!
The only concern I have with this is whether or not it may shorten the fish's lifespan at all... I'm by no means an expert or even anything close to one, but I have to wonder whether that many chemicals stresses the fish.
Also, what are your exact test results? Could you possibly (if it's not too much trouble) test your water and tell us the exact numbers/levels you come up with?
Have you added new fish to the tank recently, or are all of the fish the original inhabitants from when this experiment started? If you have added new fish, did they do alright? Sometimes fish can become acclimated to high levels of nitrates over time, but new fish will die or become sick in the tank because they haven't had that acclimation period.
This is a very interesting thread! I'm anxious to hear more about your tank.
With the list of chemicals you're putting in your tank, I bet you're the LFS's favorite customer!
The only concern I have with this is whether or not it may shorten the fish's lifespan at all... I'm by no means an expert or even anything close to one, but I have to wonder whether that many chemicals stresses the fish. Also, what are your exact test results? Could you possibly (if it's not too much trouble) test your water and tell us the exact numbers/levels you come up with?
Have you added new fish to the tank recently, or are all of the fish the original inhabitants from when this experiment started? If you have added new fish, did they do alright? Sometimes fish can become acclimated to high levels of nitrates over time, but new fish will die or become sick in the tank because they haven't had that acclimation period.
This is a very interesting thread! I'm anxious to hear more about your tank.
Interesting aproach and I wish you continued success. However with all those chemicals and the probable filter maintaince I must say that it looks like your put way more work into you tank than myself.
Last edited:
You seem to contradict your self in answer#1, but maybe I'm not reading it right. I didn't understand it when you first posted it, and I don't get it now either. I think it's another topic for another day...
I've since read the original post which answered some other questions I had.
Although we use a similiar setup (HOB + UGF + canister) we seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum chemical wise. I use no chemicals with the exception of Nov-Aqua for chlorine removal.
I never believed any of those chemicals worked, but if you haven't done a water change in 2 years and your nitrate is not through the roof, I tip my hat to you. I guess if it works for you go with it. I prefer to keep my money in my wallet and will continue to change water, it works for me.
I've since read the original post which answered some other questions I had.
Although we use a similiar setup (HOB + UGF + canister) we seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum chemical wise. I use no chemicals with the exception of Nov-Aqua for chlorine removal.
I never believed any of those chemicals worked, but if you haven't done a water change in 2 years and your nitrate is not through the roof, I tip my hat to you. I guess if it works for you go with it. I prefer to keep my money in my wallet and will continue to change water, it works for me.
I used to keep my tank with the chemical/no water change approach, with a very similar setup to the tank in question (rugf and a h.o.t. filter). It worked great for a while, the fish were all growing rapidly, the ph was never off by more than a point or so, and the water was sparkling clear. People were constantly complimenting me on how beautiful it was......
Then it crashed. All of my fish died within a 2 day timespan. I had never heard of testing for nitrates in the water, and I never tested anything but ph until the fish started dying. I tested for ammonia and it was off the color chart that came with the kit, some insane number. It was like someone poured a bottle of windex in there.... I had "left well enough alone" and my fish died, poisoned by their own wastes. It took about a year and a half for this to happen to my tank....
I have since taken the hands-off approach to the other extreme...I change about 40% of the water about once a week or so, and NEVER add any chemicals to it except a dechlorinator (unless I have a sick fish, but even then I try to treat with natural methods if I can). It has served me well, and there is only one chemical bottle (stress coat) in my cabinet (besides my test kit, which is kept elsewhere...). It's much safer for me, my tank, and my other pets, in my opinion.
I think that there are as many methods to fishkeeping as there are hobbyists, and whatever works, works. Just keep in mind that it might only be a temporary balance, and any little thing (such as one potted plant dying, which triggered my tank-death) might crash the system out. I think this applies to all tanks, not just the "unique" approaches to the hobby. Aquatic ecosystems are probably the most difficult to mimic, and nothing can completely replicate them. Mother nature has yet to divulge that secret to us....
Then it crashed. All of my fish died within a 2 day timespan. I had never heard of testing for nitrates in the water, and I never tested anything but ph until the fish started dying. I tested for ammonia and it was off the color chart that came with the kit, some insane number. It was like someone poured a bottle of windex in there.... I had "left well enough alone" and my fish died, poisoned by their own wastes. It took about a year and a half for this to happen to my tank....
I have since taken the hands-off approach to the other extreme...I change about 40% of the water about once a week or so, and NEVER add any chemicals to it except a dechlorinator (unless I have a sick fish, but even then I try to treat with natural methods if I can). It has served me well, and there is only one chemical bottle (stress coat) in my cabinet (besides my test kit, which is kept elsewhere...). It's much safer for me, my tank, and my other pets, in my opinion.
I think that there are as many methods to fishkeeping as there are hobbyists, and whatever works, works. Just keep in mind that it might only be a temporary balance, and any little thing (such as one potted plant dying, which triggered my tank-death) might crash the system out. I think this applies to all tanks, not just the "unique" approaches to the hobby. Aquatic ecosystems are probably the most difficult to mimic, and nothing can completely replicate them. Mother nature has yet to divulge that secret to us....
Originally posted by appaloosatb
Out of curiousity, how big is this tank and how many/what types of fish are in it?...
With the list of chemicals you're putting in your tank, I bet you're the LFS's favorite customer!
Could you possibly test your water and tell us the exact numbers/levels you come up with?
Have you added new fish to the tank recently, or are all of the fish the original inhabitants from when this experiment started?
1) The tank is 70 gallons, with 11 African cichlids.
2) I try to shop online, not many good places around here; the closest one I go to is about 35 minutes away. I would like to say that not all of those chemicals are put in all the time. After I test I add what’s appropriate to adjust the tank accordingly, I do all of my bidding 1 day a month.
3) I record my results here are what they were at my last test about a week ago: PH 9.2, Ammonia 0, Phosphate .2, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20, copper .05, GH 400 ppm, KH 600ppm, Iron 0, salinity1.2 ppt.
4) There are 11 fish, 8 original, 3 were added aprox 2 months ago.
Last edited:
