Use Of Table Salt!

lol.

i really did not mean to get to this level. it has been years since i have even really tried to keep up with the "science". I felt i walked away with a laymans understanding sufficient to point me to proprietary meds.

If we really want to go down the road i guess we can though. Here is a quick citation--4 hours with a 95% kill rate sounds pretty good to me.

Title: Prevention of An Initial Infestation of Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis in Channel Catfish and Blue Tilapia by Potassium Permanganate Treatment.
Authors
Straus, David - dave
Griffin, Billy
Submitted to: North American Journal Of Aquaculture
Publication Acceptance Date: July 15, 2000
Publication Date: January 1, 2001
Abstract only
Citation: Straus, D.L., Griffin, B.R. Prevention Of An Initial Infestation Of Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis In Channel Catfish And Blue Tilapia By Potassium Permanganate Treatment.. North American Journal Of Aquaculture. 2001. V.63. P.11-16.
Interpretive Summary: Ich is a well-known parasite to fish; anyone who has tried to raise fish in an aquarium is familiar with it. Potassium permanganate (KMnO4) has been used to treat fish with Ich in the past, but scientific research has not proven its effectiveness. In this study we determined the amount of KMnO4 that will kill young Ich, and the concentration needed to prevent adult Ich from growing on small channel catfish and blue tilapia. We found that 0.9 ppm KMnO4 killed more than 95% of the young Ich in 4 hrs..........This research is a part of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's requirement to get a new drug approved for use in aquaculture.

I do not have other citations from various universities available at my finger tips. If we want to I guess I can track them down again. There are some out there somewhere that clearly demonstrate the same thing in relationship to formalin and malachite green. I am sorry if i attacked what appears to be a sacred cow here.

I am not arguing the point that salt does or does not work. we all know it works. it does affect the osmo regulatory process of the parasite as it does the fish. There are some great techniques to use with significant temp increases and decreases in conjunction with salt as well.

All I am thinking of is the efficacy of the treatment regime utilized and the potential for quick success without mortality rates by the newer hobbyists with juvenile fish.

oh well, just a thought.
 
Firstly let me jst say that While I do understand that any organism is capable of becoming tolerant of pecified chemicals, As RTR mentioned. no one here is suggesting long term use of salt. Without long term use, organisms have nothing to build a tolerance to.

More importantly Juvenile fish, Fry, or adlts it really does not matter. Meds are far far more stressful and harmful to virtually any fish. Additionally, most med manfacturers do not include a lot of necessary information in their instructions.

Since most (I believe all but copper) ich meds available essentially attack proteins, there are huge variables from tank to tank in how effective the meds may be against a specified parasite. When the meds are added they immediatly begin to break down. so the dosage diminishes until a new dose is added the next day. Depending on how clean the tank is or isn't, the meds may or may not stay in high enough concentrations to kill the targeted parasite. So even in the best of situations there is some question of what correct dosage really is. Next the reccomendations for half doses on sensative fish compounds the issue. If we start with a low dose, and the med breakls down, we are really out of the realm of possibly killing the parasite. If any och cyst hatches while med concentrations are low, and those freeswimmers find a host before the next dose is added then we have survival of the parasite for at least 4 or 5 more days depending on tank temps.

Lastly most meds suggest removal long before is prudent to the battle. This is cause for recurring cases of ich as well as spport for the myth that ich is always in your tank. Removal I suspect is reccomended early because very few fish can tolerate both ich and meds for any given time without succumbing to the effects. Tougher hardy fish may do fine, but the ever popular tetras and almost any catfish will not. So what do we accomplish when we use meds according to the label? Most likely we do not rid the tank of the parasite, we do give the active parasite in the tank an opportunity to adapt and build a tolerance to the meds, and we put our fish through heavy levels of stress, without accomplishing any real benefit.
So now we are in a situation where the begginner hobbyist is at an extreme disadvantage. More experienced and Knowledgable folks Will stand a better chance of success with meds if they understand the variables, and the life cycle of the parasite. Beginners who have little understanding will be gambling with something that is very stressful to their fish.

Easy evidence of this is to ask for opinions on any ich med available. you will almost always get several people who claim it works great, several people who claim it's a waste of money and a few people who claim it has worked well for them in all 9 outbreaks they had this year :D The reviews are mixed because of the variables and lack of understanding, not because the meds are bad.

Meds can be used properly and if used properly they will kill ich, but there are far more variables with meds than with salt, any fish will have to endure more stress to get through the treatment, and the possibility of failure is far less controllable by the hobbyist. All of these add up to Salt being the better option in my mind. Money has never and will never be the issue for me with my fish. Use of meds in their correct application for the right reasons is not a problem for me either. I just don't see why anyone would want to put their fish through the stress of medications when ich can be cured once and for all with the far less stressful use of salt (I did not say stress free). other parasites come with different rules. I do not advocate salt use for just any parasite out there, nor do I reccomend anyone use salt long term, or randomly. Salt should be viewed as a medication and used where it is proven effective nothing more.

my goal is always to cure as quickly as possible. Without adding a significant stress factor through salt compounded by temps.
Click to expand...

Meds are in no way quicker than salt. Both agents kill ich during it's freeswimming stage. neither can attack ich while it is still on the host. The ich cysts are not only self protected, but they are deeply imbedded beneath the slime caot of the fish. In essence the fish protects ich. sinc ich is actually attached and embedded, any additional irritant in the tank will create more protection for ich as the fish increases production of the slime coat. the ich will not shed with the slime caot until it is good and ready and heavily encysted. It will not become vulnerable until it multiplies and hatches into hundreds of freeswimming parsites looking for a host.

The onyl way to speed up the treatment is by raising the temperature. Elevated temperatures will speed up the life cycle of ich and therefore get it off of your fish quicker. In most cases this is to the advantage of the fish as it allows them to start healing sooner. The less time they spend with ich on them the less they will be weakened, and the better their odds of recovery. additionally by speeding up the life cycle of ich, we can effectively shorten the needed treatment period without compromising or reslts. This puts the tank back to a less stressful environment sooner. If you are dealing with fish that are completely intolerant of temperature increases, then extended treament is needed with either meds or salt. Elevated temps are not a requirement for treatment, but help immensly in most if not all cases. For fish that are tolerant of incresed temperatures, it is alos good to note that ich cannot withstand temps above 86* F. I never reccomend temperature increases as a stand alone treatment, but for fish that can tolerate high temp water, the double whammy of >86* and salt or meds is a good idea.
dave
 
(applause)

nice tread guys and gals

i particularly liked that article Roan suggested. a nice sense of wit layered in rather dry discussion.

the discussions on iodine/iodide and anticaking agents was particularly useful to me, as i've largely stayed away from the debate because of lack of specific information. you guys helped fill in some holes for me.

thanks for putting in the time.

(applause)
 
salt--one of the dead horses that must periodically get flogged--lol. Don't think it will get very productive from here though.

i agree. nice thread--as far as it went.

if i offended anyone i do apologize. Lot of interesting stuff out there if you dig deep enough.
 
A satisfactory kill rate over a 4 hour period is fine, but to eradicate Ich from a FW tank that effective dosage must be maintained over an extended (multiple days, not hours) as with any med which can only kill the free-swimming infectious stage of the Ich as these are released from the the encysted multiplication stage. How is a hobbyist supposed to titirate and maintain that level of effective potassium permanganate without risking overdosing of this hazardous material, especially when it is inactived by light and reacts readily with organic materials which are present in all of our tanks in highly variable quanties?

Salt is non-toxic at effective dosages and does not break down rapidly as does permanganate.

Anyone considering using patassium permanganate in the home may want to study the safety data and hazard info available on the web by a simple Google search.

Personally, I gave up use of permanganate well over twenty years ago and have no intention of ever using such in any of my tanks again. NIMFT when a sable, effective, and many times safer alterntive is available. But in the end, it your fish tank, your choice, your risk.
 
Thanks for letting me know that no one is offended. As people that know me on other boards realize--I usually have done at least some homework at some point in time (however distant in the past) pertaining to the topic. Sorry that all I could quickly pull out were some old and rather random links.

I am thankful that I don't have to treat disease in my tanks very often at all. Certainly makes my life easier. And, sort of makes looking back a few decades examining how the learning curve progressed seem worthwhile.

Obviously we all have our opinions--i am a hard headed irishman so it will be tough to change mine--lol. And, as we all know, salt does work. In many instances. As too do many of the proprietary med approaches. In many instances. For either to be consistently successful it obviously takes following treatment protocols. And, possibly altering treatment regimes in light of the species being treated, state of disease and tank environment.

So, I will say a "thank-you" to a couple of you that questioned me directly enough to make me review and think through my fishkeeping habits.
 
Table Salt Myth

I am going to have to disagree with the post on using table salt. It is not going to kill aquarium fish. And I think it's just another scare that aquarium hobbyists don't need.

First, some anti-caking agents (anti clumping) are used in table salts and in industrial salts like road salt (for keeping ice off highways). These salts are usually sodium cyanide or potassium cyanide.

Second, cyanide is a naturally occuring compound. It is produced by plants and animals. Almonds, apples, beans, cherries, and on and on. Most lakes and rivers have some levels of cyanide in them. Well water can also be a source.

Third, the level of cyanide is the concern. (For example, just a bit of salt in drinking water adds flavor. A lot will dehydrate a person and perhaps kill them.) The same for cyanide. Small quantities of cyanide are all around us at levels that are harmless.

Forth, fish have been exposed to cyanide in the wild for hundreds of millions of years. A little bit in some table salt is not going to harm our fish. The amount of salt required to exceed the safe level of cyanide would kill freshwater fish before the cyanide would have any effect.

The facts say that it is nothing to worry about.
 
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