Where do these elusive bacteria live anyway?

[rajseth]

...The desired bacteria need 4 things: 1. A surface to which to adhere. 2. Oxygen. 3 Food (ammonia and nitrite). 4. Water.

Bacterial colonies are constantly adjusting ... size to the available sources of food ... the greatest where the best/most available sources of food and oxygen are

... (if) you add a second identical filter, you dont get twice the bacteria. What you get in the longer run is two filters each with 1/2 the bacteria the single one had.

TwoTankAmin
Thanks much for the help and the lucid explanation of the bacteria setup.

I do understand that you can only have as many bacteria as you can support. I was trying to figure out how to spread them around so that they don't all get wiped out at once. (doesn't matter if H2O supplier switches to chloramine just before that 25% water change)

I guess what I am really getting at is how to set up a safety margin to avoid catastrophe in an established tank setup. I am going to have two separate tanks, joined by an aerial water bridge - making them one body of water.

Seems like the sump/canister type setups end up putting all your bacteria 'eggs' in one 'filter' basket. That would not matter if a large chunk of the li'l critters lived in the gravel, then a canister blowing up would be buffered by the surviving colonies in the gravel. If they mostly lived in the gravel, then hanging two HOBs would not really add much value in spreading the colonies. However, if they mostly live in the filter, I put two HOBs, and I got plenty of distribution of the critters!!

So that is my angle on this question. Maybe I am over-thinking the issue, but waiting for this cycle is something I don't want to do again. with li'l kiddies in the house, fish funerals are not fun.

 

[rajseth]

Additionally,
If the bacteria mostly live in gravel area - then vacuuming would create the danger of disturbing these colonies....

 

[Hound]

Vacuuming the gravel doesn't cause enough suction to suck off the bacteria. Also a good filter should have more surface are than the surface layer of your gravel. If you used an UGF then yes a fairly large portion of the bacteria would reside there, but if you don't then it is pretty much just a surface layer of bacteria. Keep in mind filter floss and sponges may not look like much, but they have a lot of surface area. Overall I think you may be overthinking things here. Having two filters is safer than just one since the bacteria ideally would be split between the two. In the case of a filter failure then the other filter shouldn't have a problem keeping your aquarium safe. Something more catastrophic such as a long power failure would still kill off the bio filter. If I'm reading all of this correctly you seem to be concerned mostly with avoiding mini cycles. About the best way of doing this that I can think of is to consider how many fish you are adding versus how many fish you already have. That is adding eight fish into an aquarium that houses six fish is more likely to cause an issue than adding the same eight fish into an aquarium that houses 20 fish.

 

[rajseth]

thanks hound.
How many fish I add, I can control (kiddies notwithstanding).
When equipment fails, or disease strike - less so.
I am concerned about inadvertently ending up in a cycle situation with a fishful of tank => either go and get viable bio-spira, or flush-fishies. Getting Bio-Spira is not the end of the world, but if an extra $20 HOB fixes that - why not?:huh:

 

[Siren]

Something to thing about along these lines...
Do the bacteria actually die out or do they just go into forced "hibernation" until food sources are higher? If it is hibernation (the scientific term for this environmentally induced suspended animation escapes me) wouldn't the addition of waste (new fish, extra bio-load) be neutralized faster than if the colony had to reproduce to "catch-up"? The dormant bacteria would become active in a matter of minutes, versus the days/weeks it takes to create a stable colony...anyone have any info on this?

 

[Mgamer20o0]

thats why many people say to have 2 filters on a tank. that way if something happens you have a back up filter with half the bacteria still left.

 

[wataugachicken]

thanks hound.
I am concerned about inadvertently ending up in a cycle situation with a fishful of tank => either go and get viable bio-spira, or flush-fishies. Getting Bio-Spira is not the end of the world, but if an extra $20 HOB fixes that - why not?

flush fishies? WHAT KIND OF MONSTER ARE YOU?!?!?!?!

just do water changes. Armed with test kits and a Python, there's no cycle that can't be managed safely.

 

[Rbishop]

Well, if bacteria do not grow on the gravel and decor then they can not grow in canister filters...

I think they are whereever there is food, air and water and the filter is not necessarily the primary point.

 

[rajseth]

flush fishies? WHAT KIND OF MONSTER ARE YOU?!?!?!?!

EASY EASY EASY Tiger
SHoudl have said Flush DEAD fishies. Not live fishies being sent to a cruel painful death in the chemical loaded cesspool.

Since I don't want to ever be reading a fish euthanasia thread, to me there is no such thing as excess fishies. If we bought it, its ours, our responsibility. Nonetheless, one of my Danios did go belly up overnight (day after purchase) and was floating in the marsh, and Rory, the red betta, was sleeping on the gravel one morning....:sad: (after a week of salt and ick treatment)

Why to they only die overnight?

 

[rajseth]

Well, if bacteria do not grow on the gravel and decor then they can not grow in canister filters...

I think they are whereever there is food, air and water and the filter is not necessarily the primary point.

Precisely. I understand that point. I was just trying to tap the knowledgebase as to the typical distribution of the lil critters - as supported by empirical observation.
such as (hypothetically :joke: ) -

'I had two HOBs and 2 inches of gravel, and the dog ate my gravel, and I had only a 2 day mini cycle - nothing serious, two days of 30% water changes didn't fix'
or
'I had two HOBs and 2 inches of gravel, and when the aliens abducted my penguin 150, I didn't even get over .25 Nitrites. Thank goodness for my other BioWheel.....'
or
....
you get the point. In 5 years I will have my own experiences to go by - but no reason to not tap others' experiences now - less anguish for us and our fishies.....