Minor correction to Jim's post - Prime and Amquel can interfere with 1940s/50s Nessler's reagent ammonia tests, but will not interfere with better quality tests.
Yet another inquiry into fishless cycling
- Thread starter gsk177
- Start date
Well, to lay any possible misinformation to rest, the only addative I've added is Wardleys Chlor Out. It only treats for chlorine and chloramine.
Jim is right about the StressZyme. I was confusing it with StressCoat. Don't use either, got 'em backwards.
The Wardley's apparently neutralizes Chlorine and Chloramine but doesn't do anything to ammonia, which isn't really a good thing IMHO. I still would go with Amquel or Prime.
As RTR noted, the testing issue is with Nessler tests, which can register false highs. Salicylate tests are more accurate. The test kit I use is a Salicylate test.
gsk, lots of folks read through these for information, so its always good to get the details sorted out, even if it doesn't specifically pertain to the original poster's situation.
The Wardley's apparently neutralizes Chlorine and Chloramine but doesn't do anything to ammonia, which isn't really a good thing IMHO. I still would go with Amquel or Prime.
As RTR noted, the testing issue is with Nessler tests, which can register false highs. Salicylate tests are more accurate. The test kit I use is a Salicylate test.
gsk177 said:
gsk, lots of folks read through these for information, so its always good to get the details sorted out, even if it doesn't specifically pertain to the original poster's situation.
If we are crossing all the Ts and dotting the Is, I belive Chlor-out is thio-only. While it may break the chlorine-ammonia bond, it does not affect the freed ammonia - which matters not at all in fishless. 
Hey guys, feel free to use my thread to debate or post opinions. I more or less started this thread so I could see if I had the whole fishless cycle processes down correctly. But any chatter or discussion on the topic is welcomed and encouraged.
Since Im doing a fishless cycle, I was thinking that using Wardleys ChlorOut ONLY would be the way to go. I chose ChlorOut because it only addressed my chlorine and chloramine issues and nothing else. I didn't want to bother the ammonia in any way because I thought that was the whole point of the fishless cycle: To simulate a heavy bioload of fishes by adding your own bioload in form of ammonia.
From what I have gathered thusfar, I am of the understanding that by using products such as Prime would really have no negative effects on my tests. I gather that the Prime type products don't actually break down the ammonia, but rather neutralize it in such a way so that it is harmless to the fish. The ammonia is still available to the biologicals to eat. Am I correct in my understanding?
At any rate, I have NOT and do NOT plan on using anything other than Wardleys ChlorOut to treat my water during this fishless cycle. If its not hurting the process nor helping the process, I figure why use it in the firstplace.
But by all means, continue to raise discussions on this topic as I all too happy to hear all points of view and experiences.
Since Im doing a fishless cycle, I was thinking that using Wardleys ChlorOut ONLY would be the way to go. I chose ChlorOut because it only addressed my chlorine and chloramine issues and nothing else. I didn't want to bother the ammonia in any way because I thought that was the whole point of the fishless cycle: To simulate a heavy bioload of fishes by adding your own bioload in form of ammonia.
From what I have gathered thusfar, I am of the understanding that by using products such as Prime would really have no negative effects on my tests. I gather that the Prime type products don't actually break down the ammonia, but rather neutralize it in such a way so that it is harmless to the fish. The ammonia is still available to the biologicals to eat. Am I correct in my understanding?
At any rate, I have NOT and do NOT plan on using anything other than Wardleys ChlorOut to treat my water during this fishless cycle. If its not hurting the process nor helping the process, I figure why use it in the firstplace.
But by all means, continue to raise discussions on this topic as I all too happy to hear all points of view and experiences.
Day 4 test results
Ok, today I got my new heater. It was installed in the tank and turned to 82degrees.
Test readings today are:
PH ~7.4 the color fell between the 7.2 and 7.6 on the color chart
NO2 0
NO3 10ppm
NH3 ~4ppm
GH and KH not tested
Correct me if Im wrong, are the GH and KH factors of any importance to my fishless cycling? Im going to assume there are still GH 0 and KH 3 which is what they were at setup.
Ok, today I got my new heater. It was installed in the tank and turned to 82degrees.
Test readings today are:
PH ~7.4 the color fell between the 7.2 and 7.6 on the color chart
NO2 0
NO3 10ppm
NH3 ~4ppm
GH and KH not tested
Correct me if Im wrong, are the GH and KH factors of any importance to my fishless cycling? Im going to assume there are still GH 0 and KH 3 which is what they were at setup.
Chlor-Out or any plain dechlorinator is fine while fishlessly cycling, you are 100% correct. With fish in the tank, it's less clear that dechlorinator is OK if your water has chloramines.
My water has chloramines and will produce water with about 1 ppm ammonia after treating with simple dechlorinator. When I do partial water changes, then, I'm adding some amount of ammonia to the tank (unless I age the water first, but that's a different story....). If I do a 25% change with tap water, my tank will read .25 ppm ammonia. If I do a 50% change, I'll get .5 ppm ammonia.
Is that amount enough to worry about? Is it enough to require one to invest in pricier things like Amquel or Prime. Formerly, I didn't think so. But I've been convinced by a number of folks here and on other boards, that weekly or semi-weekly exposure to even those levels of ammonia probably isn't godd for the fish over the long haul. Since my aim is to provide as good an environment as I can for my fish, I've decided to use Amquil or Prime anytime I add water directly to the tank. I honestly can't say if it makes a huge difference, but I feel like I'm doing a better job of caring for my fish.
Jim
My water has chloramines and will produce water with about 1 ppm ammonia after treating with simple dechlorinator. When I do partial water changes, then, I'm adding some amount of ammonia to the tank (unless I age the water first, but that's a different story....). If I do a 25% change with tap water, my tank will read .25 ppm ammonia. If I do a 50% change, I'll get .5 ppm ammonia.
Is that amount enough to worry about? Is it enough to require one to invest in pricier things like Amquel or Prime. Formerly, I didn't think so. But I've been convinced by a number of folks here and on other boards, that weekly or semi-weekly exposure to even those levels of ammonia probably isn't godd for the fish over the long haul. Since my aim is to provide as good an environment as I can for my fish, I've decided to use Amquil or Prime anytime I add water directly to the tank. I honestly can't say if it makes a huge difference, but I feel like I'm doing a better job of caring for my fish.
Jim
gsk177 said:
KH is quite important. If KH gets used up (as it does during cycling) the cycle will stall and pH will drop. Not good for the development of beneficial bacteria. Adding a tablespoon or two of baking soda (when fishless cycling you don't have to be precise) every couple of weeks should keep KH from becoming depleted. If your KH is as low as you say, though, I'd get a test kit for it. You don't want KH fluctuating much or you can have all sorts of problems, like pH swings.
HTH,
Jim
Thats good to know JShc. My tap water Kh levels are at 3 and in all my other tanks, which I test weekly on all parameters, the KH stays steady at 3 degrees (i think that the proper unit of measurement).
Since I did notice a .2 PH drop since day 1 test results I will start testing daily for KH.
SOmewhat off topic though, what could cause a KH fluctuation in an established tank, other than tinkering of the PH? Are they both related in terms of when one goes up or down so does the other?
Since I did notice a .2 PH drop since day 1 test results I will start testing daily for KH.
SOmewhat off topic though, what could cause a KH fluctuation in an established tank, other than tinkering of the PH? Are they both related in terms of when one goes up or down so does the other?
Bioacidification is the term for the production of acid as part of the biofiltration process. KH is burned up when ammonia/nitrites are oxidized, thus KH drops. (We see this dramatically in fishless cycling because we allow concentrations of ammonia or nitrites to exceed what we ever would if there were fish in the tank.) Since KH (carbonate hardness) is a measure of the water's buffering capacity (or ability to resist changes in pH in the faces of acids), a reduction of KH can correlate to a drop in pH. (The inverse is also often true; if you bump up KH thru addition of carbonates, pH tends to rise also.)
Lots of times, in a stocked tank, regular water changes will replenish KH enough to keep pH stable. If your tank is overstocked or if you let maintenance slide, you invite a KH/pH crash when you have water low in KH to start with. Make sense?
Jim
Lots of times, in a stocked tank, regular water changes will replenish KH enough to keep pH stable. If your tank is overstocked or if you let maintenance slide, you invite a KH/pH crash when you have water low in KH to start with. Make sense?
Jim
