Yet another inquiry into fishless cycling

[gsk177]

Makes perfect sense, thank you!

So being that my tap water has a KH of 3 that is not necessarily good or bad. What it means is that my water, straight form the tap, has low buffering capabilities and is more suseptable to PH fluctuations. It pretty much means I need to keep a close eye on my maintenance and my Ph readings. Have I got that right?

Also, since my tap water is on a water softener, I occasionally add Cichlid Lake Salts to add a little hardness to the water. The dose varies from tank to tank, but I try to keep the Gh at an optimal range for whatever fishes live in that particular tank. Does the addition of such Salts affect my KH at all?

I notice that in one tank, housing white clouds and 2 cories, my Ph is 7.6 GH is 0 and KH is 4. I add no salts to that tank.
In another Convict only tank, the Ph is 7.4 GH is 7 and KH is 3. (I am slowly trying to raise the Gh in that tank to 12) I add salts to this tank.
In my another tank housing a juvenile Oscar and juvenile JD, my Ph is 8.0 GH 5 and KH 5. (I am slowly trying to lower the Ph to tap water spec at 7.6 and get my Gh up to 10) Again, I add salts to this tank.

I posted those specs because I cannot see a direct correlation between my Gh Kh and Ph levels. Your knowledge in this area is why I posted the scenario.

 

[RTR]

With fish in the system, you do need to know if your source water has chlorine-only, or chloramine. Chlor-Out is not adequate for chloramine disinfected water. An agent such as prime should be used instead, to both break the bond and neutralize both the chlorine and the ammonia. Chlor-Out does nothing for the released ammonia, and your fish should not be needlessly exposed to that ammonia if chloramine is used in your water source.

 

[gsk177]

Perhaps I should clarify. I am only using ChlorOut in my fishless cycling tank. In all my others I am using Prime.
I have heard mixed responses when inquiring about whether or not Prime or other broad range conditioners would give me false readings during my testing. Just to play it safe, I chose to go with ChlorOut, which, btw, states that it treats for chlorine AND chloramine. Is this not true?

 

[JSchmidt]

Makes perfect sense, thank you!

So being that my tap water has a KH of 3 that is not necessarily good or bad. What it means is that my water, straight form the tap, has low buffering capabilities and is more suseptable to PH fluctuations. It pretty much means I need to keep a close eye on my maintenance and my Ph readings. Have I got that right?

That is correct. KH of 3 degrees isn't terrible, but it isn't much buffering, especially in a tank with a heavy bioload.

Also, since my tap water is on a water softener, I occasionally add Cichlid Lake Salts to add a little hardness to the water. The dose varies from tank to tank, but I try to keep the Gh at an optimal range for whatever fishes live in that particular tank. Does the addition of such Salts affect my KH at all?

Not sure about that... some time ago, I used Seachem Cichlid Salts and Malawi Buffer, and I think the salts didn't do much to KH, just GH. It's been a while since I've use them. (I now make my own with epsom salts, baking soda, and Aragamilk.)

I notice that in one tank, housing white clouds and 2 cories, my Ph is 7.6 GH is 0 and KH is 4. I add no salts to that tank.
In another Convict only tank, the Ph is 7.4 GH is 7 and KH is 3. (I am slowly trying to raise the Gh in that tank to 12) I add salts to this tank.
In my another tank housing a juvenile Oscar and juvenile JD, my Ph is 8.0 GH 5 and KH 5. (I am slowly trying to lower the Ph to tap water spec at 7.6 and get my Gh up to 10) Again, I add salts to this tank.

I posted those specs because I cannot see a direct correlation between my Gh Kh and Ph levels. Your knowledge in this area is why I posted the scenario.

I don't think GH is a factor, but it looks like in tanks with a higher KH, you have slightly higher pH, which is as it should be. I believe -- I'm not a 100% sure -- that you should be able to monkey around with GH and not affect pH too much. If you raise or lower KH, though, you'll see pretty marked changes in pH.

HTH,
Jim

 

[RTR]

Pretty much agree w/Jim. In theory, you could bring the GH way up and have no effect on the KH - but - the more soluble calcium and magnesium salts tend to carbonates and bicarbonates, which will bring both GH and KH up. There are chlorides available (GH effect only), but they are not very soluble. Sulphates would be in the same profile. All those would bring GH up (and TDS) with little or no KH/pH effect.

 

[carpguy]

…I chose to go with ChlorOut, which, btw, states that it treats for chlorine AND chloramine. Is this not true?

I was sort of assuming that what went in the tank before the fish would continue to go into the tank after the fish. Didn't realize it was strictly a testing issue.

ChlorOut treats for the chlorine portion of chlorine and chloramine, doesn't do anything for the ammonia portion of chloramine. Which doesn't really matter a whit in a fishless, but might be a concern later, especially if your a fan of large water changes.

 

[RTR]

The older brands of disinfectant neutralizers refuse to give up thier market share in the face of wide-spread chloramine use in this country. Many of them ignore the fact the although higher does of plain sodium thiosulfate will break the chlorine-ammonia bond, the material will only neutralize the chlorine, leaving the ammonia present and free to attack the fish's gills. That is poor at best, misleading to be at all PC, dishonest in truth.

I think that it is great that there is choice available - Chlor-Out is one of the simplest "conditioners" around and as such it works fine. But for them to pretend that it neutralizes both chlorine and chloramine is dishonest. Another case where the consumer must be informed - you have to know what is in your water supply and buy the appropriate product to render it harmless. And unfortunately you cannot rely on most stores to give you valid information.

 

[gsk177]

So answer me this question RTR, in your obviously well educated opinion, if we are strictly talking about my fishless cycling process, which is better to use, ChlorOut of Prime? I have both available. I use Prime in all my established tanks.

 

[gsk177]

Day 5 test results

OK this morning I got up and tested my water again. Around 13 hours have passed since my last test.

Ph is at 7.6
NO2 0
NO3 10ppm
NH3 2ppm
GH 0
KH still 3

I added one more tbls of NH3 to raise NH3 levels to 4ppm


I just got home from work, about 14 hours since the last test and addition of NH3.

Everything else is the same, BUT NH3 levels are at 2ppm. A good thing. NH3 levels are now dropping at 2ppm per ~12 hours.

I did NOT add another dose of NH3 and I will tell you why.

My original plan with tank was to use it as a home for my nearly 4 inch male JD. I visited my only trusted LFS last week and told the owner, Gil (and Im not making that up) that I wanted him to look into getting me a similar sized female JD so that I could possibly use them as a breeding pair. Well, he took that to mean place an order for one. This morning he calls me and says he got her in this morning. I explained to him that I was fishless cycling ( a process in which he was surprisingly familiar) and relayed to him my present readings and trends. I asked him to hold on to her until tomorrow, Saturday, and told him that I thought my nitrifiers were burning off enough NH3 to safely house everyone.

Now, before you go and jump all over me...this was by no means my intentions. I had intended on getting the tank completely setup and THEN have him order the female for me. When I asked him to "look into it" I meant for him to contact his supplier and let me know IF he could get one and how much it would cost me. I would then judge my new tank status and place my order AFTER everything was good to go and running smooth.

So now Im forced into a dilema I didn't intend. This is my first order with guy, but not my first fish purchase. He tells me she is absolutely gorgeous and was very smitten by her good looks.

So my moral question, as well as inquiring question is this.

Assuming I do a MASSIVE water change tomorrow and due to the fact that I am consistently burning 2ppm of NH3 and due to the fact that I used so much established media, does anyone see me having a problem? I plan to VERY closely (like twice a day) monitor my tank conditions and will gladly do water changes twice a day or more if need be.
First and foremost I will visit the board BEFORE I go pick her up or add my male to the tank.

Please help!! I am torn between wanting a safe and stable environment for my current and new fish and not wanting to put this guy out with housing this fish for me...even though I NEVER told him to go ahead and order it.
I could ask him to house her until Monday which would give me another 2 full days of testing, but I know he doesn't have the tank space to house her by herself long term. She is currently in a 110g "cichlid" tank and being very territorial from what I am told.....making her spot in a corner and chasing off anything that comes near her. The normal cichlids I see in this tank are 1 inch juveniles of african decent.

 

[RTR]

I would actually prefer Chlor-Out for fishless, but Prime for the big water change at the end and routinely when the fish are present.

If you are burning out 2 ppm in 12-14 hours, you are effectively there. I assume that you have some subtaintial margin of safety on the tank size, as JDs at 4" are far from grown. That alone should give you the needed marging for pushing the wind-up of the cycle. Monitor the ammonia/nitrite 2x daily, water change and add salt if required for nitrite. But with any luck you won't need to do panic partials.