A Stalled Fishless Cycle

[shockwave191]

I realize there are no magical numbers as to how long a fishless cycle should take to complete. However, usually it takes anywhere from four to six weeks and possibily up to 2 months. I'm into 6 weeks of performing a fishless cycle and the ammonia has never dropped and still no nitrIte. I believe the cycle is stuck. My PH is 7.6. My Ammonia has also been maintained at 2-4ppm, never dropping below 2ppm. My NitrIte is still zero after six weeks. There is some aeration and temp is ~82 to 84 degrees F. (It has dropped as low as 78 in the past/bad heater). I did turn off my tank light due to algae (Green flaky kind due to too much light).

What can I do to get this cycling unstuck? (Or am I stuck?)

Should I add some plants?

Should I add some API PH Down to add phosphate to the water?

Is it just a matter of waiting longer because all tanks will eventually cycle?

Thanks
Chris

[dirtydawg10]

You don't need your light. You should have seen nitrite by now.

What are you using for an ammonia source and did you add a dechlor to the water to remove the chlorine and/or chloramine?

[shockwave191]

Yes, I don't need the light.

I'm using Amquel Plus as my dechlorinator (I believe is still good/It does not smell)

As for ammonia I'm using Goodwin's Pure Ammonia. When you shake the bottle it does not foam at all so, I assume there are no addatives mixed in.

Also using an API master test kit and the solutions were bottled in 07. Still should be good. I have three years until time of replacement.

I hope this help.

Thanks

[shockwave191]

Yes, I don't need the light to cycle.

I am using Aquel Plus as my dechlorinator. It is still good. It does not smell.

As far as ammonia, I'm using Goodwin's Pure Ammonia. When you shake the bottle it does not foam at all so, I assume it has no addatives mixed in.

Test kit is API and the solutions were bottled in 07. Still should be good.

Hope this helps.
Thanks.

[dirtydawg10]

Hmmm...sounds like you've got it under control. You may want to try and seed the tank with bacteria from an established tank to see if you can jumpstart your cycle.

[shockwave191]

From your reply all seems well. I will see if I can borrow some tank water, or substrate from my neighbor. Other then that nothing else I can do, huh? Have you ever heard of using the API PH Down to add phosphate to the water?

Thanks

[dirtydawg10]

The water won't help. The bacteria is not found in the water. Substrate and/or filter media is what you want. No I have never used API PH down but I would suspect you don't need it.

[injunear]

From your reply all seems well. I will see if I can borrow some tank water, or substrate from my neighbor. Other then that nothing else I can do, huh? Have you ever heard of using the API PH Down to add phosphate to the water?

Thanks

Firstly, I would like to know if you have nitrAtes? If you have nitrAtes, then likely you have nitrItes and they're being consumed........

Secondly, test your tap water so that you have a baseline.

I've had false readings before when using the Amquel plus.....I stopped using it for that one reason. I know that others say it's okay but I had enough "stuff" going on at the time without having to interpret what might be false indications.

I suggest that you do a water change, as much as 100%, and this time use a product that has dechlorinator only. You can get TOPFIN dechlorinator at any Petsmart. It will not interfere with your readings.

This time add about 3 ppm of ammonia instead of the full 5 ppm and wait and see if you can read nitrItes in a day or two, as well as nitrAtes.

Doing the water change won't affect your bacteria but will get rid of the Amquel II.

edit: added link to TPFIN dechlorinator
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752208

[Star_Rider]

you don't need high temp to get bacteria to grow you should be fine 78-82.
I am not sure where you would get false readings from an additive..a dechlorinator only may itself be problematic if it is not designed to deal with chloramine.
I have seen false positive readings with those dechlorinators that work with chloramine..but it really is NOT a false positve..the ammonia test we commonly use test for total ammonia..(total ammonia = NH3+NH4)

the dechlorinators that work on chloramine work by breaking the chlorine ammonia bond ..neutralize the chlorine and convert NH3 to NH4 a(ammonium= less toxic).

I agree check to see if you have nitrates..it is possible you missed the nitrite tio nitrate stage but if you have nitrates this may indicate you already have both bacteria we desire.

[SchizotypalVamp]

I agree with star_rider. It doesn't add the false readings, it just tells you that it is there. Detoxified, but there. Which it wouldn't be if your tank was cycled....

[injunear]

you don't need high temp to get bacteria to grow you should be fine 78-82.
I am not sure where you would get false readings from an additive..a dechlorinator only may itself be problematic if it is not designed to deal with chloramine.
I have seen false positive readings with those dechlorinators that work with chloramine..but it really is NOT a false positve..the ammonia test we commonly use test for total ammonia..(total ammonia = NH3+NH4)

the dechlorinators that work on chloramine work by breaking the chlorine ammonia bond ..neutralize the chlorine and convert NH3 to NH4 a(ammonium= less toxic).

I agree check to see if you have nitrates..it is possible you missed the nitrite tio nitrate stage but if you have nitrates this may indicate you already have both bacteria we desire.

TOPFIN takes care of both chlorine and chlorimines.......
I've had false readings involving nitrItes with Amquel plus reading nearly zero when I knew it was higher because I had just switched to Amquel plus when running out of the TOPFIN stuff. Amquel plus also binds nitrItes. I went back to the TOPFIN to continue my cycling and that's why I stopped using it....

To the OP.
I just went back and read your other cycling thread and you never once mentioned aeration, or filter. I don't mean to be anal but you do have a filter of some sort hooked up and running, yes?

You mention some aeration in this thread...What does that mean exactly?

[shockwave191]

Everyone,
I'm sorry for taking so long to reply but, the replies don't show on the forum section for me. It must be taking some time before the post actually make it to the forum section. I had to really dig to see everyone's replies as well as my own.

Injunear
I have a Red Sea Nano HOB filter on that tank and yes, it is running.

As far as the aeration, I did not fill the tank all the way up. In other words I left space between the water level and the outlet of the filter. This produces some air bubbles or aeration into the tank. I do not have an air stone with pump.

Yes, I do have NitrAtes of 10ppm.


Star-Rider
As you have mentioned I apparently did miss the nitrIte cycle. Man, did it happen fast.


SO NOW HOW DO I PROCEED FROM HERE?

First, should I switch to prime or use topfin? (Or either one at this point will be just fine)

Second, I assume I must stop the ammonia and just let the tank continue until the ammonia drops to .25ppm or less before adding any plants and fish, correct? Technically if the tank is cycled I should see the Ammonia disappear in 24 hours indicating the tank is cycled (Which I have not see). So if the Ammonia does not drop or disappear then what? The question still remains; Is the tank cycled?

Third, is there anything else I should have asked but, did not or I need to know?

Thanks a million for everyone's replies. This is great.
Chris

[injunear]

Everyone,
I'm sorry for taking so long to reply but, the replies don't show on the forum section for me. It must be taking some time before the post actually make it to the forum section. I had to really dig to see everyone's replies as well as my own.

Injunear
I have a Red Sea Nano HOB filter on that tank and yes, it is running.

As far as the aeration, I did not fill the tank all the way up. In other words I left space between the water level and the outlet of the filter. This produces some air bubbles or aeration into the tank. I do not have an air stone with pump.

Yes, I do have NitrAtes of 10ppm.


Star-Rider
As you have mentioned I apparently did miss the nitrIte cycle. Man, did it happen fast.


SO NOW HOW DO I PROCEED FROM HERE?

First, should I switch to prime or use topfin? (Or either one at this point will be just fine)

Second, I assume I must stop the ammonia and just let the tank continue until the ammonia drops to .25ppm or less before adding any plants and fish, correct? Technically if the tank is cycled I should see the Ammonia disappear in 24 hours indicating the tank is cycled (Which I have not see). So if the Ammonia does not drop or disappear then what? The question still remains; Is the tank cycled?

Third, is there anything else I should have asked but, did not or I need to know?

Thanks a million for everyone's replies. This is great.
Chris

Having nitrAtes (assuming you have 0 in your tap water) means that you have bacteria consuming nitrItes.

If your tank is really cycled, and it appears it might be, then this is the time you do that 100% water change and add fish........You don't have to wait for the ammonia to deplete to 0.25 ppm unless you want to be sure.

Don't do the water change until shortly before getting the fish else you'll need to maintain the ammonia.

At this point it probably not going to matter much if your tank's fully cycled as you can deal with it from this point out by tracking water parameters and doing PWC's as necessary.

[shockwave191]

Injunear,
Thanks for the reply. I will wait until I ready to add fish before doing the water change. I just don't want to kill off the NitrAte bacteria. It took so long to acheive it.

Can I add plants with the ammonia level at 2-4ppm? Should I do a water change first but, then that means I need to add fish right away?

Going back to your comment on Amquel plus, should I switch to prime or Topfin?

Thanks
Chris

[injunear]

Injunear,
Thanks for the reply. I will wait until I ready to add fish before doing the water change. I just don't want to kill off the NitrAte bacteria. It took so long to acheive it.

Can I add plants with the ammonia level at 2-4ppm? Should I do a water change first but, then that means I need to add fish right away?

Going back to your comment on Amquel plus, should I switch to prime or Topfin?

Thanks
Chris


If you're going to add fish then stick with the Amquel plus....It will benefit the fish after you add them as if there's any ammonia or nitrItes produced by them it will bind them and render them harmless and allow you time to change the water.
I'm not sure about the plants.........

[dirtydawg10]

I would also recommend checking your tap water for nitrates if you haven't done so already.

[THE V]

Injunear,
Thanks for the reply. I will wait until I ready to add fish before doing the water change. I just don't want to kill off the NitrAte bacteria. It took so long to acheive it.

Can I add plants with the ammonia level at 2-4ppm? Should I do a water change first but, then that means I need to add fish right away?

Going back to your comment on Amquel plus, should I switch to prime or Topfin?

Thanks
Chris

Definitely add the plants. If you would have added the plants at the very beginning it could have helped cycle your tank faster. After adding plants you will need to monitor the ammonia levels and add some when they are depleted. Plants will eat up ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Adding the plants a few weeks before the fish will allow for a quarantine period and allow them to become established.

[kimmisc]

Just want to add that it isn't unheard of to take 2 months or longer for nitrites to show up. I've done fishy and fishless cycles, and when not seeded, it takes months for my tanks.

[shockwave191]

Bad news everyone,
I finally checked the tap water and the 10ppm of NitrAte is from the tap water. This means the tank is still not cycled. Wow, this stinks. Anyway I guess I need to do 100% water change and start all over again. This time I will try adding some plants. THis is disappointing. If anyone has suggestions I'm open.

Thanks
Chris

[SchizotypalVamp]

Hang in there :)

[shockwave191]

SchizotypalVamp
Thanks. Just to let you know this is my second cycle with this tank. The first was done improperly. The question is do I start all over or hang in there for another two weeks or so, making it two months?

Thanks

[THE V]

Just add the plants with your current cycle. No need to start over fresh. If you have proper lighting and fertilize them you can have your tank ready for fish in just a few weeks.

[excuzzzeme]

Try to get a used filter and substrate from a friends tank. You don't need a lot of but at least 1 cup. Toss the used filter in the tank with the substrate. Failing that try to get some "TLC" bacteria starter. I have used it and added fish 2 days later.

[dirtydawg10]

Try to hang in there. Definitely try to seed the tank with some filter media and/or substrate from an established tank. I have also heard that the amquel may screw up your nitrite readings so you may be further along then you think. I'm not familiar with amquel though.

[Marinemom]

Somehow I think you did get stuck. But do not lose hope. Every tank cycles eventually. In your case you just have to help it along a little. Definitely add some plants as soon a you can.The more the better. You do not need to start over. The plants will help you out a lot. Add some Florish and Florish Exel for the plants and follow the direction on the bottle. You may need more nutrients then that but this will get you started. You will be cycled in no time.

Hang in there!

Marinemom

[Rbishop]

What is the ammonia reading on your tap? Something is being left out here. Can you shoot us a pic of the ingredients on that ammonia bottle?

[Marinemom]

Good point. Maybe there is something wrong with the ammonia you have been adding. Might be better to add a raw shrimp in a nylon stocking and let it rot in the tank to use as your ammonia.

Marinemom

[shockwave191]

Again thank you for all the replies and I appologize for my responses. For some reason the actual thread is still not showing up in the forum section. I'm having to dig for it by searching.

Some added info. I have incorrectly cycled this tank before with this ammonia. The first time I just added in the ammonia only once. I did not keep on feeding it as it dropped. The tank was brought up to a level of 3-4ppm and I just left it. It did cycle; however, the NitrAte of 5ppm was not enough and was basically dead.

As of now the tank is:
PH 7.6-7.8
Ammonia 2-3ppm (never dropping below 2)
NitrIte 0
NitrAte 10ppm (due to tap water)
kh 140-180 (Petsmart readings)
gh 280-300 (Petsmart readins)
Temp 82-84 (Hoping to speed up process)
HOB filer which is providing some aeration, no airstone.
Amquel Plus water conditioner (Seems good/no smell).
Has been six weeks in cycling process.
Tank only has rock substrate, nothing else.
Light off due to algae (green flaky type)
API Test kit liquid (bottled in 07/still should be good)

Tap Water (From carbon active filer on faucet)
Ammonia 0ppm
NitrAte 10ppm

Ammonia is (Could not post pic, need to learn how) Goodwin's pure ammonia. Streak Free no rinsing. Non detergent. When shaking it, it does not foam up. I assume there are on addatives mixed in.


Hope this helps.
Thanks

[shockwave191]

Those who wanted the pic of my ammonia, here it is. (I think)
Again thanks.

[shockwave191]

rbishop,
I'm sorry I reread your post/reply and you wanted a pic of the ingredients of the ammonia. I'm sorry but there are none on the bottle.

Chris

[Rbishop]

Just wanted to make sure it didn't have any surficants in it.

[OldMan47]

So the question comes down to this for me shockwave191. Where are you located? Maybe if we knew, one of us with a cycled tank would be close enough to swap filter elements with you to give you a jump start.

[shockwave191]

rbishop,
I don't believe it does have surficants added in. I tried to do a googel search on this stuff and was not able to find much. What little I did find gave me the indication that it was good to use. One thread a person actually called the company for the ingredients and they would not state what they were??

OldMan47,
I actually live in San Jose, California. I believe those responding are a ways away. My neighbor has a 100 gallon or so aquarium so, when he does some cleaning I try to get some substrate or let my filter pad soak in his water.


As of now I added one plant. Others are on there way. I have not purchased any fertilizer as of yet. Others have mentioned what brands/kind to get so, that will be down the road. I'm hoping, snice I bought the plant from Petsmart that this may seed my tank. Not sure but I will check my water parameters in a bit.

Again thanks
the saga continues.

[Rbishop]

Ask if you can have one of his filter media pads or some of the stuff in his canister....

[SchizotypalVamp]

And/or a handful of gravel, in a 100 gal aquarium he won't miss it!

[shockwave191]

Good News,
It is finally starting to cycle. Today after checking water parameters it reads as follows.

Ammonia 1-2ppm
NitrIte 1 ppm

It may have been the plant that got it going, not sure. Anyway further questions.

1) Should I continue to add ammonia to it at this stage and to what level? I
don't want to loose or kill off the good bacteria.

2) How high or to what level should the NitrIte spike to in order to get a
healthy quantity of NitrAte?

3) Should I purchase some fertilizer for the plant(s)?

Again thanks
Chris

[Rbishop]

keep it at 3 ppm ammonia.

[SchizotypalVamp]

Congrats!