And YOUR evidence would be....where? 99% of what you stated is opinion and hearsay. The other one percent is questionable unless of course you have some research to present.
black convict, bloodparrot crossbreed kind question
- Thread starter raift
- Start date
This type of arguments fired up from time to time. The root of the argument is intolerance. Like religeous war, one group can't tolerate another group because their belief is different.
Personally, I don't buy hybrid cichlids, because there are so many gorgeous species out there to choose from and one can never in his life time keep every species. But I respect others who like to keep hybrid cichlid.
90% of the aquarium live bearers are hybrid or selectively bred mutants. The American Live Bearer Association, unlike ACA, promotes and awards new hybrids. If keeping hybrid fish is morally wront, than the American Live Bearer Association is an evil association.
I have no moral judgement on keeping hybrid cichlid, I only oppose to selling hybrids without disclosing them as hybrid. Many times it is the fault of the hobbyists who sell hybrid fish to LFS without disclosing their origin; other times are bad cultural practices by Florida fish farm which raise mixed ciclids in the same pond creating unknown hybrids.
Here are some facts about hybrid fish:
Hybrid fish are typically fertile and not deformed. Repeated in breeding of pure species will eventually lead to deformity and possibly infertility if the deformity is severe
Hybrid fish are not weaker or have a shorter life span. Farm raised Salmon, Striped Bass and Tilapia are all hybrid species to achieve faster growth rate and better resistance to deseases.
Domesticated Discus, Angel Fish and Red Devel are hybrid species or subspecies. Blood Parrot is not hybrid Devel and Severum, but deformed mutant Red Devel.
Personally, I don't buy hybrid cichlids, because there are so many gorgeous species out there to choose from and one can never in his life time keep every species. But I respect others who like to keep hybrid cichlid.
90% of the aquarium live bearers are hybrid or selectively bred mutants. The American Live Bearer Association, unlike ACA, promotes and awards new hybrids. If keeping hybrid fish is morally wront, than the American Live Bearer Association is an evil association.
I have no moral judgement on keeping hybrid cichlid, I only oppose to selling hybrids without disclosing them as hybrid. Many times it is the fault of the hobbyists who sell hybrid fish to LFS without disclosing their origin; other times are bad cultural practices by Florida fish farm which raise mixed ciclids in the same pond creating unknown hybrids.
Here are some facts about hybrid fish:
Hybrid fish are typically fertile and not deformed. Repeated in breeding of pure species will eventually lead to deformity and possibly infertility if the deformity is severe
Hybrid fish are not weaker or have a shorter life span. Farm raised Salmon, Striped Bass and Tilapia are all hybrid species to achieve faster growth rate and better resistance to deseases.
Domesticated Discus, Angel Fish and Red Devel are hybrid species or subspecies. Blood Parrot is not hybrid Devel and Severum, but deformed mutant Red Devel.
Jadefoodog: the original poster's question was answered, but what you have characterized as a "self glory flame war" is in fact just more experienced hobbyists trying to dissuade other hobbyists from doing something that is bad for the hobby and bad for their fish.
Mojo, for one, is unlikely to be trying to inflate his own ego by posting on this board. Not only does he have his own site (where the most experienced cichlid keepers go to exchange information), but he also works with the American Cichlid Association, where some of the best academic fishkeepers, (e.g. Paul Loiselle, hang their hats. In addition, he maintains over 3000 gallons of aquaria, and regularly posts pictures and videos to share information with his fellow hobbyists.
For my own part, I currently have 20 aquaria with total capacity of about 2200 gallons, and have been keeping fish for the last 44.5 years. Trust me when I say that I have made almost every mistake in the book, and am only trying to impart some of my experience to others to prevent them from repeating my errors. And, excuse me for saying so, but I do not in any way, shape, or form consider posting on this board (or moderating it) to be any sort of an ego boost.
Having said that, you are also incorrect that I have no experience with hybrids. Although I do not intend to begin writing exhaustive essays on any subject where I dare to express an opinion, I will do so this one time just to prove my point.
Here is a picture of a hybrid:
I have had this fish for fifteen years. Waaaay back in late 1990, I had a 125g Tanganyikan community tank. In that tank were two completely separate breeding pairs; one of Julidochroms marlieri and one of Neolamprologus brichardi. Both pairs had spawned right before we bought a new house. In the course of the move, I carefully removed all adults from the tank, and then conducted an exhaustive search for all of the fry, which were moved as a group into a 27 gallon tank of their own. As those fry grew up, I thought that I saw one N. leleupi fry in there as well (I had a pair of those also and assumed that they must have spawned where I couldn't see them).
As the fry got larger, what I thought was an N. leleupi turned out to be this fish. Since there was only one, the conclusion I have come to was that both pairs were spawning at exactly the same time, and currents carried sperm from one across to the eggs of the other and one egg happened to get cross-fertilized.
Now, since it was a hybrid between two different genera, let alone species, I figured it had to be sterile, and when it got larger I put it back into the community tank, which had subsequently been upgraded to 280g. Unfortunately, I was wrong. It immediately paired up with a J. marlieri female and began breeding. Well, I wasn't about to remove two tons of rocks and break down the 280g tank just to catch this fish, so over the subsequent 14 years I have just watched developments.
Here is what I have seen. The characteristics of the fry are extremely variable, both in first and second generation crosses (some of the hybrids then bred back to each other). Some still have the brichardi fin extensions, others do not. Some look like N. buescheri, others like J. marlieri with spade-shaped fins.
And here is the key point. Other than the original hybrid, ALL OF THESE FISH DIE YOUNG, after showing signs of extreme ageing. They get bent backs and cataracts, and die after 3-4 years. The purebred fish in that tank still show the same life expectancy as ever (14-15 years, on average), but the hybrids, and only the hybrids, don't last.
This experience, by the way, matches up with what modern genetics predicts.
Now, I have never released any of these fish into the hobby, but just imagine if I had. People would be wondering why their " J. marlieri" or "N. buescheri" were dying, and many fishkeepers thinking they had purebreds would be unknowingly raising unhealthy hybrids. To repeat, the problems generally don't show up in the first generation, but only when crosses are bred in succeeding generations.
That is the real situation that people who encourage hybrids run the risk of creating, and that is why experienced fishkeepers keep making the points that they do, despite the grief that they get for it.
Mojo, for one, is unlikely to be trying to inflate his own ego by posting on this board. Not only does he have his own site (where the most experienced cichlid keepers go to exchange information), but he also works with the American Cichlid Association, where some of the best academic fishkeepers, (e.g. Paul Loiselle, hang their hats. In addition, he maintains over 3000 gallons of aquaria, and regularly posts pictures and videos to share information with his fellow hobbyists.
For my own part, I currently have 20 aquaria with total capacity of about 2200 gallons, and have been keeping fish for the last 44.5 years. Trust me when I say that I have made almost every mistake in the book, and am only trying to impart some of my experience to others to prevent them from repeating my errors. And, excuse me for saying so, but I do not in any way, shape, or form consider posting on this board (or moderating it) to be any sort of an ego boost.
Having said that, you are also incorrect that I have no experience with hybrids. Although I do not intend to begin writing exhaustive essays on any subject where I dare to express an opinion, I will do so this one time just to prove my point.
Here is a picture of a hybrid:
I have had this fish for fifteen years. Waaaay back in late 1990, I had a 125g Tanganyikan community tank. In that tank were two completely separate breeding pairs; one of Julidochroms marlieri and one of Neolamprologus brichardi. Both pairs had spawned right before we bought a new house. In the course of the move, I carefully removed all adults from the tank, and then conducted an exhaustive search for all of the fry, which were moved as a group into a 27 gallon tank of their own. As those fry grew up, I thought that I saw one N. leleupi fry in there as well (I had a pair of those also and assumed that they must have spawned where I couldn't see them).
As the fry got larger, what I thought was an N. leleupi turned out to be this fish. Since there was only one, the conclusion I have come to was that both pairs were spawning at exactly the same time, and currents carried sperm from one across to the eggs of the other and one egg happened to get cross-fertilized.
Now, since it was a hybrid between two different genera, let alone species, I figured it had to be sterile, and when it got larger I put it back into the community tank, which had subsequently been upgraded to 280g. Unfortunately, I was wrong. It immediately paired up with a J. marlieri female and began breeding. Well, I wasn't about to remove two tons of rocks and break down the 280g tank just to catch this fish, so over the subsequent 14 years I have just watched developments.
Here is what I have seen. The characteristics of the fry are extremely variable, both in first and second generation crosses (some of the hybrids then bred back to each other). Some still have the brichardi fin extensions, others do not. Some look like N. buescheri, others like J. marlieri with spade-shaped fins.
And here is the key point. Other than the original hybrid, ALL OF THESE FISH DIE YOUNG, after showing signs of extreme ageing. They get bent backs and cataracts, and die after 3-4 years. The purebred fish in that tank still show the same life expectancy as ever (14-15 years, on average), but the hybrids, and only the hybrids, don't last.
This experience, by the way, matches up with what modern genetics predicts.
Now, I have never released any of these fish into the hobby, but just imagine if I had. People would be wondering why their " J. marlieri" or "N. buescheri" were dying, and many fishkeepers thinking they had purebreds would be unknowingly raising unhealthy hybrids. To repeat, the problems generally don't show up in the first generation, but only when crosses are bred in succeeding generations.
That is the real situation that people who encourage hybrids run the risk of creating, and that is why experienced fishkeepers keep making the points that they do, despite the grief that they get for it.
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Harry Tolen, your one experience did not prove that hybrid are short live. Fish hybrids are different from mammal hybrids which tend to be infertile and short lived. Quite the contrary, the rigor and fertility of fish hybrids cause concern that they will perpetuate and contaminate pure breed. Every one who keeps African cichlids one time or another will experience hybridization. I had hybrids of Haps to Tanganyikans and none of the hybrids are short lived. I have experienced sneaky hybridization of Tananyikans egg layers when a juvenile leulupi sneak in to fetilize a few eggs laid by a pair of dominant cylindricus. Only recently CA keepers reported hybridization because more species and bigger tanks become available. The San Francisco Steinhart Aquarium million-gallon CA tank recently had to clean out and restock becasue the CAs are hybridizing out of control. I haven't heard any of these hybrids are short live or else they won't have to restock the tank.
Tiger 15: I was adducing one example in support of an already acknowledged point in genetics, not constructing an entire theory myself on the basis of one experiment. Furthermore, the weakness I am referring to shows up only in later generations, and not in the first cross. Most of the examples you have cited do not address this point at all.
Finally, I will just point out the fact that the Steinhart found it necessary to dump an entire swimming-pool sized tank of cichlids indicates pretty clearly how they feel about the subject of hybridization.
Finally, I will just point out the fact that the Steinhart found it necessary to dump an entire swimming-pool sized tank of cichlids indicates pretty clearly how they feel about the subject of hybridization.
MoJo said:
have you been paying attention at all, have you even read what i posted. i dont say that hybrids are hardy or defective. all i said was nobody here has posted any real evidence. and my evidence is EVERY SINGLE POST leading up to this one. please go read what i said one more time cause that made almost no sense to me. and what are you talkign about hearsay im talking about the post you guys have made i read them fro myself i didnt hear from anyone what you guys have said.
ive made no conviction to the hardiness or moral standing of hybrids and i wont.
OMG harry tolen. thats exactly the kind of evidence that needs presented when you people decide to argue with each other. the presentation of that kind of information although limited to one situation and a limited spectrum of fish its still more than anyone else has proven. you say you dont like to write an essay to prove your point, well sometimes you have to or it just looks like your saying "this is how it is and its that way because i say so" and that dont fly with people who pay attention.
also harry i wasnet saying that jojo wasent as special as he says or whatever im just saying online people can be anything "in fact most people on aol are supermodel body builder millionair ninja racecardrivers" so i take anything without concrete evidence with a grain of salt.
while you did provider more information than anoythe else to the current point thats just one set of variables with potentionally millions more out there whos to say one hybrid (especcially cross genus) is short lived and another isnt a superfish. in the feild of horticulture you have some hybrid trees that die almost as soon as they reach the sapling stage and others like the callory pear that are imune to almost every illness and fungus that their zone of hardiness will allow.
for anyone to give a definitive answer to wether or not the whole hybrid system is detrimental would take thousands of controled exsperiments with constant noteing and variable water conditions.
now as for the moral side , morallity is really just opinions
The point is that while hybridization can result in new strains that are better than their predecessors, the odds are hugely against it. It is one thing for Monsanto, with millions to spend on reseach, to create new hybrid crops. They are, after all, capable of repeating the experiment thousands of times and ruthlessly culling the 99.99% of output that is genetically inferior. It is another for hobbyists, with one or two tanks, and the real risk of allowing hybrids into the general hobby, to attempt the same thing at home.
yep.
your right. im in fact kniwn for not likeing guppies or bettas and the only reason i own any is because they were gifts.
i never made a post on my opinion of the hybrids themselves, but i think now i will. i have no evidence of if they are hardy or not so i wont go there ive never messed with hybrids myself. but i think breeding a species for fancy colors or long fins that dont work is crule fot the fish that cant swim right. and the bright colors look un natural and the guppies i got as a present lack any personality at all.
im not gona begin to tell anybody else what to do with their stuff but im against me buying any or breeding them. my guppy fry are recycled as snacks for my serpae tetras.
your right. im in fact kniwn for not likeing guppies or bettas and the only reason i own any is because they were gifts.
i never made a post on my opinion of the hybrids themselves, but i think now i will. i have no evidence of if they are hardy or not so i wont go there ive never messed with hybrids myself. but i think breeding a species for fancy colors or long fins that dont work is crule fot the fish that cant swim right. and the bright colors look un natural and the guppies i got as a present lack any personality at all.
im not gona begin to tell anybody else what to do with their stuff but im against me buying any or breeding them. my guppy fry are recycled as snacks for my serpae tetras.
We have to remember that these are living creatures we are so casually 'playing' with here.
For all of you who are all-for hybrids, would you condone the hybridization of Homo sapiens sapiens and Pan troglodytes (the chimpanzee)?
Because if you think its okay to hybridize fish of two different genus, why not humans and chimps? We are, after all, 98.8% related, and it has been suggested that a viable hybrid could possibly be created in the lab, if someone were allowed to try it.
So, whats the difference? Knowingly and willingly creating hybrids is just messing with nature, and at the same time messing up the purity of the aquarium trade.
Maybe we should reconsider hybridization, or else one day there may be Chimpmans walking around everywhere.
:
-Diana
For all of you who are all-for hybrids, would you condone the hybridization of Homo sapiens sapiens and Pan troglodytes (the chimpanzee)?
Because if you think its okay to hybridize fish of two different genus, why not humans and chimps? We are, after all, 98.8% related, and it has been suggested that a viable hybrid could possibly be created in the lab, if someone were allowed to try it.
So, whats the difference? Knowingly and willingly creating hybrids is just messing with nature, and at the same time messing up the purity of the aquarium trade.
Maybe we should reconsider hybridization, or else one day there may be Chimpmans walking around everywhere.
:-Diana
